Are clauses with “который” restrictive or non-restrictive by default?“Left” and “right” in RussianDifference between “какой” and “который”Is there a conceptual difference between “speak” and “say” in Russian?What is the different between “возвратиться” and “вернуться”?Is this how to say “every other day” in Russian?чтобы for connection between prepositions and verbsClauses after non-accusative verbs or тоDifferent 'number' in verb of relative clause using которыйSentence structure in the following sentencesSubtleties of choosing the sequence of tenses in Russian

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Are clauses with “который” restrictive or non-restrictive by default?


“Left” and “right” in RussianDifference between “какой” and “который”Is there a conceptual difference between “speak” and “say” in Russian?What is the different between “возвратиться” and “вернуться”?Is this how to say “every other day” in Russian?чтобы for connection between prepositions and verbsClauses after non-accusative verbs or тоDifferent 'number' in verb of relative clause using которыйSentence structure in the following sentencesSubtleties of choosing the sequence of tenses in Russian













1















Let's consider the following sentence, which I just found in Google as an illustrative example:




Наиболее опасные из акул – тигровые акулы, которые обитают в тропических водах.




Two interpretations come to my mind:



(1) The most dangerous sharks are the tiger sharks, which live in tropical waters.



(2) The most dangerous sharks are the tiger sharks that live in tropical waters.



Sentence (1) contains a non-restrictive clause and says two separate things, the first one being that the most dangerous sharks are the tiger sharks, and the second one being that the tiger sharks live in tropical waters. Sentence (2) contains a restrictive clause and says only one thing, namely, that the most dangerous sharks are those tiger sharks that live in tropical waters. Sentence (2) implies that there are also tiger sharks that live in other waters and that those tiger sharks are less dangerous.



My question is this: Are clauses with который restrictive or non-restrictive by default - that is, in situations where the meaning of который is unclear from the context? In other words, which meaning should be assumed when the context allows both?










share|improve this question




























    1















    Let's consider the following sentence, which I just found in Google as an illustrative example:




    Наиболее опасные из акул – тигровые акулы, которые обитают в тропических водах.




    Two interpretations come to my mind:



    (1) The most dangerous sharks are the tiger sharks, which live in tropical waters.



    (2) The most dangerous sharks are the tiger sharks that live in tropical waters.



    Sentence (1) contains a non-restrictive clause and says two separate things, the first one being that the most dangerous sharks are the tiger sharks, and the second one being that the tiger sharks live in tropical waters. Sentence (2) contains a restrictive clause and says only one thing, namely, that the most dangerous sharks are those tiger sharks that live in tropical waters. Sentence (2) implies that there are also tiger sharks that live in other waters and that those tiger sharks are less dangerous.



    My question is this: Are clauses with который restrictive or non-restrictive by default - that is, in situations where the meaning of который is unclear from the context? In other words, which meaning should be assumed when the context allows both?










    share|improve this question


























      1












      1








      1








      Let's consider the following sentence, which I just found in Google as an illustrative example:




      Наиболее опасные из акул – тигровые акулы, которые обитают в тропических водах.




      Two interpretations come to my mind:



      (1) The most dangerous sharks are the tiger sharks, which live in tropical waters.



      (2) The most dangerous sharks are the tiger sharks that live in tropical waters.



      Sentence (1) contains a non-restrictive clause and says two separate things, the first one being that the most dangerous sharks are the tiger sharks, and the second one being that the tiger sharks live in tropical waters. Sentence (2) contains a restrictive clause and says only one thing, namely, that the most dangerous sharks are those tiger sharks that live in tropical waters. Sentence (2) implies that there are also tiger sharks that live in other waters and that those tiger sharks are less dangerous.



      My question is this: Are clauses with который restrictive or non-restrictive by default - that is, in situations where the meaning of который is unclear from the context? In other words, which meaning should be assumed when the context allows both?










      share|improve this question
















      Let's consider the following sentence, which I just found in Google as an illustrative example:




      Наиболее опасные из акул – тигровые акулы, которые обитают в тропических водах.




      Two interpretations come to my mind:



      (1) The most dangerous sharks are the tiger sharks, which live in tropical waters.



      (2) The most dangerous sharks are the tiger sharks that live in tropical waters.



      Sentence (1) contains a non-restrictive clause and says two separate things, the first one being that the most dangerous sharks are the tiger sharks, and the second one being that the tiger sharks live in tropical waters. Sentence (2) contains a restrictive clause and says only one thing, namely, that the most dangerous sharks are those tiger sharks that live in tropical waters. Sentence (2) implies that there are also tiger sharks that live in other waters and that those tiger sharks are less dangerous.



      My question is this: Are clauses with который restrictive or non-restrictive by default - that is, in situations where the meaning of который is unclear from the context? In other words, which meaning should be assumed when the context allows both?







      usage clauses subordinate-clause






      share|improve this question















      share|improve this question













      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question








      edited 2 hours ago







      Mitsuko

















      asked 4 hours ago









      MitsukoMitsuko

      414211




      414211




















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          1














          You can't see the difference between a restrictive and non-restrictive который, but you can hear it.



          If the noun phrase that который refers to is stressed and you can sort of "hear" the comma, i.e. the overall tone falls off and starts picking up again on который, it's non-restrictive.



          If it's restrictive, the noun phrase and который have about the same emphasis (or lack thereof), and there's no audible break or "reset" of the intonation, just as if the comma wasn't there.



          Your particular example, intuitively, feels non-restrictive. It could be restrictive, one would need to hear it to be sure. Just an inference from the meaning; real-world facts suggest a shark is more likely to be deemed the most dangerous based on its species alone, rather than species plus habitat. However, if it was species plus habitat, I feel I'd expect it to be expressed more clearly — say, те из тигровых акул, что обитают, etc.






          share|improve this answer






























            1














            It all depends on context; the rules are not set in stone; the "который" relative clauses in Russian are neither invariably/intrinsically non-restrictive nor invariably/intrinsically restrictive by default. I've come up with two colloquial sentences to illustrate the difference:





            Если и есть что-то хуже нарциссов, так это люди, которые не умеют держать себя в руках.




            • ... people who ... rather than ... people, who ...

            In English, this can only reasonably be interpreted as a (2) restrictive relative clause (without a preceding comma); if you see it as a (1) non-restrictive clause (with a comma), it sounds as if all the people in the world act in the same unpleasant manner. Which would be an illogical thing to say.





            И ради этого ты готов пожертвовать своими товарищами, которые помогали тебе все это время?!




            • ... colleagues, who ... rather than ... colleagues who ...

            In English, this one, on the other hand, can only reasonably be interpreted as a (1) non-restrictive relative clause (with a preceding comma); if you see it as a (2) restrictive clause (without a comma), it sounds as if there are some colleagues you will NOT sacrifice: those who have never helped you before. Which would be an illogical thing to say.




            Some languages (English, French etc) make a distinction between a non-restrictive relative clause and a restrictive one with a preceding comma, or the lack thereof, whereas others (Russian, German etc) do not, at least in writing, with an ever-present comma in place.






            share|improve this answer

























            • Thanks a lot! I actually meant to ask a slightly different thing: How should I interpret который when the context allows both interpretations? By default meaning, I meant the meaning that should be assumed in the absence of a telling context. I will now edit the question for clarity.

              – Mitsuko
              2 hours ago











            • @Mitsuko Hi. That is precisely what my answer was all about: without context to go on, it is not possible, at least in writing, to figure out which is which in Russian or German, as opposed to how it works in English or French.

              – Con-gras-tue-les-chiens
              1 hour ago











            Your Answer








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            You can't see the difference between a restrictive and non-restrictive который, but you can hear it.



            If the noun phrase that который refers to is stressed and you can sort of "hear" the comma, i.e. the overall tone falls off and starts picking up again on который, it's non-restrictive.



            If it's restrictive, the noun phrase and который have about the same emphasis (or lack thereof), and there's no audible break or "reset" of the intonation, just as if the comma wasn't there.



            Your particular example, intuitively, feels non-restrictive. It could be restrictive, one would need to hear it to be sure. Just an inference from the meaning; real-world facts suggest a shark is more likely to be deemed the most dangerous based on its species alone, rather than species plus habitat. However, if it was species plus habitat, I feel I'd expect it to be expressed more clearly — say, те из тигровых акул, что обитают, etc.






            share|improve this answer



























              1














              You can't see the difference between a restrictive and non-restrictive который, but you can hear it.



              If the noun phrase that который refers to is stressed and you can sort of "hear" the comma, i.e. the overall tone falls off and starts picking up again on который, it's non-restrictive.



              If it's restrictive, the noun phrase and который have about the same emphasis (or lack thereof), and there's no audible break or "reset" of the intonation, just as if the comma wasn't there.



              Your particular example, intuitively, feels non-restrictive. It could be restrictive, one would need to hear it to be sure. Just an inference from the meaning; real-world facts suggest a shark is more likely to be deemed the most dangerous based on its species alone, rather than species plus habitat. However, if it was species plus habitat, I feel I'd expect it to be expressed more clearly — say, те из тигровых акул, что обитают, etc.






              share|improve this answer

























                1












                1








                1







                You can't see the difference between a restrictive and non-restrictive который, but you can hear it.



                If the noun phrase that который refers to is stressed and you can sort of "hear" the comma, i.e. the overall tone falls off and starts picking up again on который, it's non-restrictive.



                If it's restrictive, the noun phrase and который have about the same emphasis (or lack thereof), and there's no audible break or "reset" of the intonation, just as if the comma wasn't there.



                Your particular example, intuitively, feels non-restrictive. It could be restrictive, one would need to hear it to be sure. Just an inference from the meaning; real-world facts suggest a shark is more likely to be deemed the most dangerous based on its species alone, rather than species plus habitat. However, if it was species plus habitat, I feel I'd expect it to be expressed more clearly — say, те из тигровых акул, что обитают, etc.






                share|improve this answer













                You can't see the difference between a restrictive and non-restrictive который, but you can hear it.



                If the noun phrase that который refers to is stressed and you can sort of "hear" the comma, i.e. the overall tone falls off and starts picking up again on который, it's non-restrictive.



                If it's restrictive, the noun phrase and который have about the same emphasis (or lack thereof), and there's no audible break or "reset" of the intonation, just as if the comma wasn't there.



                Your particular example, intuitively, feels non-restrictive. It could be restrictive, one would need to hear it to be sure. Just an inference from the meaning; real-world facts suggest a shark is more likely to be deemed the most dangerous based on its species alone, rather than species plus habitat. However, if it was species plus habitat, I feel I'd expect it to be expressed more clearly — say, те из тигровых акул, что обитают, etc.







                share|improve this answer












                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer










                answered 2 hours ago









                Nikolay ErshovNikolay Ershov

                16.6k22968




                16.6k22968





















                    1














                    It all depends on context; the rules are not set in stone; the "который" relative clauses in Russian are neither invariably/intrinsically non-restrictive nor invariably/intrinsically restrictive by default. I've come up with two colloquial sentences to illustrate the difference:





                    Если и есть что-то хуже нарциссов, так это люди, которые не умеют держать себя в руках.




                    • ... people who ... rather than ... people, who ...

                    In English, this can only reasonably be interpreted as a (2) restrictive relative clause (without a preceding comma); if you see it as a (1) non-restrictive clause (with a comma), it sounds as if all the people in the world act in the same unpleasant manner. Which would be an illogical thing to say.





                    И ради этого ты готов пожертвовать своими товарищами, которые помогали тебе все это время?!




                    • ... colleagues, who ... rather than ... colleagues who ...

                    In English, this one, on the other hand, can only reasonably be interpreted as a (1) non-restrictive relative clause (with a preceding comma); if you see it as a (2) restrictive clause (without a comma), it sounds as if there are some colleagues you will NOT sacrifice: those who have never helped you before. Which would be an illogical thing to say.




                    Some languages (English, French etc) make a distinction between a non-restrictive relative clause and a restrictive one with a preceding comma, or the lack thereof, whereas others (Russian, German etc) do not, at least in writing, with an ever-present comma in place.






                    share|improve this answer

























                    • Thanks a lot! I actually meant to ask a slightly different thing: How should I interpret который when the context allows both interpretations? By default meaning, I meant the meaning that should be assumed in the absence of a telling context. I will now edit the question for clarity.

                      – Mitsuko
                      2 hours ago











                    • @Mitsuko Hi. That is precisely what my answer was all about: without context to go on, it is not possible, at least in writing, to figure out which is which in Russian or German, as opposed to how it works in English or French.

                      – Con-gras-tue-les-chiens
                      1 hour ago















                    1














                    It all depends on context; the rules are not set in stone; the "который" relative clauses in Russian are neither invariably/intrinsically non-restrictive nor invariably/intrinsically restrictive by default. I've come up with two colloquial sentences to illustrate the difference:





                    Если и есть что-то хуже нарциссов, так это люди, которые не умеют держать себя в руках.




                    • ... people who ... rather than ... people, who ...

                    In English, this can only reasonably be interpreted as a (2) restrictive relative clause (without a preceding comma); if you see it as a (1) non-restrictive clause (with a comma), it sounds as if all the people in the world act in the same unpleasant manner. Which would be an illogical thing to say.





                    И ради этого ты готов пожертвовать своими товарищами, которые помогали тебе все это время?!




                    • ... colleagues, who ... rather than ... colleagues who ...

                    In English, this one, on the other hand, can only reasonably be interpreted as a (1) non-restrictive relative clause (with a preceding comma); if you see it as a (2) restrictive clause (without a comma), it sounds as if there are some colleagues you will NOT sacrifice: those who have never helped you before. Which would be an illogical thing to say.




                    Some languages (English, French etc) make a distinction between a non-restrictive relative clause and a restrictive one with a preceding comma, or the lack thereof, whereas others (Russian, German etc) do not, at least in writing, with an ever-present comma in place.






                    share|improve this answer

























                    • Thanks a lot! I actually meant to ask a slightly different thing: How should I interpret который when the context allows both interpretations? By default meaning, I meant the meaning that should be assumed in the absence of a telling context. I will now edit the question for clarity.

                      – Mitsuko
                      2 hours ago











                    • @Mitsuko Hi. That is precisely what my answer was all about: without context to go on, it is not possible, at least in writing, to figure out which is which in Russian or German, as opposed to how it works in English or French.

                      – Con-gras-tue-les-chiens
                      1 hour ago













                    1












                    1








                    1







                    It all depends on context; the rules are not set in stone; the "который" relative clauses in Russian are neither invariably/intrinsically non-restrictive nor invariably/intrinsically restrictive by default. I've come up with two colloquial sentences to illustrate the difference:





                    Если и есть что-то хуже нарциссов, так это люди, которые не умеют держать себя в руках.




                    • ... people who ... rather than ... people, who ...

                    In English, this can only reasonably be interpreted as a (2) restrictive relative clause (without a preceding comma); if you see it as a (1) non-restrictive clause (with a comma), it sounds as if all the people in the world act in the same unpleasant manner. Which would be an illogical thing to say.





                    И ради этого ты готов пожертвовать своими товарищами, которые помогали тебе все это время?!




                    • ... colleagues, who ... rather than ... colleagues who ...

                    In English, this one, on the other hand, can only reasonably be interpreted as a (1) non-restrictive relative clause (with a preceding comma); if you see it as a (2) restrictive clause (without a comma), it sounds as if there are some colleagues you will NOT sacrifice: those who have never helped you before. Which would be an illogical thing to say.




                    Some languages (English, French etc) make a distinction between a non-restrictive relative clause and a restrictive one with a preceding comma, or the lack thereof, whereas others (Russian, German etc) do not, at least in writing, with an ever-present comma in place.






                    share|improve this answer















                    It all depends on context; the rules are not set in stone; the "который" relative clauses in Russian are neither invariably/intrinsically non-restrictive nor invariably/intrinsically restrictive by default. I've come up with two colloquial sentences to illustrate the difference:





                    Если и есть что-то хуже нарциссов, так это люди, которые не умеют держать себя в руках.




                    • ... people who ... rather than ... people, who ...

                    In English, this can only reasonably be interpreted as a (2) restrictive relative clause (without a preceding comma); if you see it as a (1) non-restrictive clause (with a comma), it sounds as if all the people in the world act in the same unpleasant manner. Which would be an illogical thing to say.





                    И ради этого ты готов пожертвовать своими товарищами, которые помогали тебе все это время?!




                    • ... colleagues, who ... rather than ... colleagues who ...

                    In English, this one, on the other hand, can only reasonably be interpreted as a (1) non-restrictive relative clause (with a preceding comma); if you see it as a (2) restrictive clause (without a comma), it sounds as if there are some colleagues you will NOT sacrifice: those who have never helped you before. Which would be an illogical thing to say.




                    Some languages (English, French etc) make a distinction between a non-restrictive relative clause and a restrictive one with a preceding comma, or the lack thereof, whereas others (Russian, German etc) do not, at least in writing, with an ever-present comma in place.







                    share|improve this answer














                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer








                    edited 52 mins ago

























                    answered 3 hours ago









                    Con-gras-tue-les-chiensCon-gras-tue-les-chiens

                    5,1872517




                    5,1872517












                    • Thanks a lot! I actually meant to ask a slightly different thing: How should I interpret который when the context allows both interpretations? By default meaning, I meant the meaning that should be assumed in the absence of a telling context. I will now edit the question for clarity.

                      – Mitsuko
                      2 hours ago











                    • @Mitsuko Hi. That is precisely what my answer was all about: without context to go on, it is not possible, at least in writing, to figure out which is which in Russian or German, as opposed to how it works in English or French.

                      – Con-gras-tue-les-chiens
                      1 hour ago

















                    • Thanks a lot! I actually meant to ask a slightly different thing: How should I interpret который when the context allows both interpretations? By default meaning, I meant the meaning that should be assumed in the absence of a telling context. I will now edit the question for clarity.

                      – Mitsuko
                      2 hours ago











                    • @Mitsuko Hi. That is precisely what my answer was all about: without context to go on, it is not possible, at least in writing, to figure out which is which in Russian or German, as opposed to how it works in English or French.

                      – Con-gras-tue-les-chiens
                      1 hour ago
















                    Thanks a lot! I actually meant to ask a slightly different thing: How should I interpret который when the context allows both interpretations? By default meaning, I meant the meaning that should be assumed in the absence of a telling context. I will now edit the question for clarity.

                    – Mitsuko
                    2 hours ago





                    Thanks a lot! I actually meant to ask a slightly different thing: How should I interpret который when the context allows both interpretations? By default meaning, I meant the meaning that should be assumed in the absence of a telling context. I will now edit the question for clarity.

                    – Mitsuko
                    2 hours ago













                    @Mitsuko Hi. That is precisely what my answer was all about: without context to go on, it is not possible, at least in writing, to figure out which is which in Russian or German, as opposed to how it works in English or French.

                    – Con-gras-tue-les-chiens
                    1 hour ago





                    @Mitsuko Hi. That is precisely what my answer was all about: without context to go on, it is not possible, at least in writing, to figure out which is which in Russian or German, as opposed to how it works in English or French.

                    – Con-gras-tue-les-chiens
                    1 hour ago

















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