Why doesn't ever smooth vector bundle admits a line bundle?Tautological vector bundle over $G_1(mathbbR^2)$ isomorphic to the Möbius bundleAlternate definition of vector bundle?Dual of a holomorphic vector bundleSmooth sections of smooth vector bundleIs the unit bundle of a Finsler vector bundle a sphere bundle?Redundancy in the definition of vector bundles?Why are $E/F$ and $E^ast$ smooth manifolds?Restriction of a smooth vector bundle is a smooth bundle?Show that the Mobius bundle is a smooth real line bundle and it is non-trivial.Why is this wrong? Orientation-reversing vector bundle isomorphism on even-rank vector bundles

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Why doesn't ever smooth vector bundle admits a line bundle?


Tautological vector bundle over $G_1(mathbbR^2)$ isomorphic to the Möbius bundleAlternate definition of vector bundle?Dual of a holomorphic vector bundleSmooth sections of smooth vector bundleIs the unit bundle of a Finsler vector bundle a sphere bundle?Redundancy in the definition of vector bundles?Why are $E/F$ and $E^ast$ smooth manifolds?Restriction of a smooth vector bundle is a smooth bundle?Show that the Mobius bundle is a smooth real line bundle and it is non-trivial.Why is this wrong? Orientation-reversing vector bundle isomorphism on even-rank vector bundles













1












$begingroup$


Let $E to M$ be a smooth vector bundle. Consider $G = sqcup_p in M F_p$ where $F_p$ is just a 1 dimensional subspace of each fiber $E_p$. The trivialization is just coming from the restriction of the trivialization of $E$. Why is this argument wrong?










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    How do you ensure that you make a choice of $F_p$ that "varies smoothly" with $p$? You need to be more precise how the trivialization comes from the restriction of the trivialization of $E$.
    $endgroup$
    – Jane Doé
    2 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    Can you explain what trivialization you have in mind in more detail? (In attempting to do so, I suspect you may find the error yourself.)
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    2 hours ago















1












$begingroup$


Let $E to M$ be a smooth vector bundle. Consider $G = sqcup_p in M F_p$ where $F_p$ is just a 1 dimensional subspace of each fiber $E_p$. The trivialization is just coming from the restriction of the trivialization of $E$. Why is this argument wrong?










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    How do you ensure that you make a choice of $F_p$ that "varies smoothly" with $p$? You need to be more precise how the trivialization comes from the restriction of the trivialization of $E$.
    $endgroup$
    – Jane Doé
    2 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    Can you explain what trivialization you have in mind in more detail? (In attempting to do so, I suspect you may find the error yourself.)
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    2 hours ago













1












1








1


1



$begingroup$


Let $E to M$ be a smooth vector bundle. Consider $G = sqcup_p in M F_p$ where $F_p$ is just a 1 dimensional subspace of each fiber $E_p$. The trivialization is just coming from the restriction of the trivialization of $E$. Why is this argument wrong?










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$




Let $E to M$ be a smooth vector bundle. Consider $G = sqcup_p in M F_p$ where $F_p$ is just a 1 dimensional subspace of each fiber $E_p$. The trivialization is just coming from the restriction of the trivialization of $E$. Why is this argument wrong?







differential-geometry differential-topology smooth-manifolds vector-bundles






share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question











share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question










asked 2 hours ago









kochkoch

22518




22518







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    How do you ensure that you make a choice of $F_p$ that "varies smoothly" with $p$? You need to be more precise how the trivialization comes from the restriction of the trivialization of $E$.
    $endgroup$
    – Jane Doé
    2 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    Can you explain what trivialization you have in mind in more detail? (In attempting to do so, I suspect you may find the error yourself.)
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    2 hours ago












  • 1




    $begingroup$
    How do you ensure that you make a choice of $F_p$ that "varies smoothly" with $p$? You need to be more precise how the trivialization comes from the restriction of the trivialization of $E$.
    $endgroup$
    – Jane Doé
    2 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    Can you explain what trivialization you have in mind in more detail? (In attempting to do so, I suspect you may find the error yourself.)
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    2 hours ago







1




1




$begingroup$
How do you ensure that you make a choice of $F_p$ that "varies smoothly" with $p$? You need to be more precise how the trivialization comes from the restriction of the trivialization of $E$.
$endgroup$
– Jane Doé
2 hours ago





$begingroup$
How do you ensure that you make a choice of $F_p$ that "varies smoothly" with $p$? You need to be more precise how the trivialization comes from the restriction of the trivialization of $E$.
$endgroup$
– Jane Doé
2 hours ago













$begingroup$
Can you explain what trivialization you have in mind in more detail? (In attempting to do so, I suspect you may find the error yourself.)
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
2 hours ago




$begingroup$
Can you explain what trivialization you have in mind in more detail? (In attempting to do so, I suspect you may find the error yourself.)
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
2 hours ago










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















3












$begingroup$

Well, here's a simple example. Let $M=mathbbR$ and let $E$ be the trivial bundle $MtimesmathbbR^2$. You say to pick a 1-dimensional subspace $F_p$ of each fiber, so let's do so as follows. If $p=0$, then $F_p=ptimes 0timesmathbbR$. If $pneq0$, then $F_p=ptimesmathbbRtimes0$.



You now say we can (locally) trivialize $G$ by just restricting a (local) trivialization of $E$. Well, in this case $E$ is globally trivial, so you'd be saying that $G$ is already trivial. But if we try to "restrict" our trivialization of $E$, we immediately hit a problem: there is no single subspace $VsubsetmathbbR^2$ such that $F_p=ptimes V$ for all $p$, so there is no obvious way to restrict our trivialization. We could try to define a trivialization $MtimesmathbbRto G$ that would be an isomorphism on each fiber, but such a map would not be continuous, since the fiber of $G$ "jumps" discontinuously at $0$. Indeed, $G$ is not a line bundle over $M$ at all.



Now you might say I just made a dumb choice of 1-dimensional subspaces $F_p$. It would have been a lot smarter to pick $F_p=ptimesmathbbRtimes0$ for all $p$, instead of doing something crazy at $p=0$. Indeed, in that case $G$ would be a trivial line bundle and the obvious map $MtimesmathbbRto G$ would be an isomorphism of line bundles. But, what if our original bundle $E$ was not trivial? Then we could make a "smart" choice like this for $F_p$ in each local trivialization of $E$, but our choices of $F_p$ in different local trivialization that overlap might not be the same. There's no reason to believe we can choose $F_p$ consistently for all $p$ such that $G$ really is locally trivial everywhere.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$




















    0












    $begingroup$

    Some comments:



    1. The family of 1-dimensional subspaces $p mapsto F_p$ does indeed exist, by the axiom of choice.


    2. The set $sqcup_p in M F_p$ does indeed exist, by basic principles of set theory.


    3. There's a natural set-theoretic inclusion of $bigsqcup_p in M F_p$ into the total space $E$.


    4. By composing the distinguished map $E rightarrow M$ with the aforementioned inclusion, we get a surjective function from $sqcup_p in M F_p$ down onto the base space $M$.


    5. It remains to show that the map in $(3)$ is smooth. If we can show this, then the map in $(4)$ is smooth, and we're done.


    6. We can't show that the map in $(3)$ is smooth until we've chosen a manifold structure on $sqcup_p in M F_p.$


    7. Since the $F_p$ are arbitrary, getting an actual manifold structure on $sqcup_p in M F_p$ is usually going to be impossible. There's just no guarantee they'll fit together in such a way as to smoothly vary between fibers.


    8. In special cases we're able to choose $p mapsto F_p$ in a non-arbitrary way in order to prove that the particular vector bundle under question has an embedded line bundle.






    share|cite|improve this answer









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      2 Answers
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      active

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      2 Answers
      2






      active

      oldest

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      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes









      3












      $begingroup$

      Well, here's a simple example. Let $M=mathbbR$ and let $E$ be the trivial bundle $MtimesmathbbR^2$. You say to pick a 1-dimensional subspace $F_p$ of each fiber, so let's do so as follows. If $p=0$, then $F_p=ptimes 0timesmathbbR$. If $pneq0$, then $F_p=ptimesmathbbRtimes0$.



      You now say we can (locally) trivialize $G$ by just restricting a (local) trivialization of $E$. Well, in this case $E$ is globally trivial, so you'd be saying that $G$ is already trivial. But if we try to "restrict" our trivialization of $E$, we immediately hit a problem: there is no single subspace $VsubsetmathbbR^2$ such that $F_p=ptimes V$ for all $p$, so there is no obvious way to restrict our trivialization. We could try to define a trivialization $MtimesmathbbRto G$ that would be an isomorphism on each fiber, but such a map would not be continuous, since the fiber of $G$ "jumps" discontinuously at $0$. Indeed, $G$ is not a line bundle over $M$ at all.



      Now you might say I just made a dumb choice of 1-dimensional subspaces $F_p$. It would have been a lot smarter to pick $F_p=ptimesmathbbRtimes0$ for all $p$, instead of doing something crazy at $p=0$. Indeed, in that case $G$ would be a trivial line bundle and the obvious map $MtimesmathbbRto G$ would be an isomorphism of line bundles. But, what if our original bundle $E$ was not trivial? Then we could make a "smart" choice like this for $F_p$ in each local trivialization of $E$, but our choices of $F_p$ in different local trivialization that overlap might not be the same. There's no reason to believe we can choose $F_p$ consistently for all $p$ such that $G$ really is locally trivial everywhere.






      share|cite|improve this answer











      $endgroup$

















        3












        $begingroup$

        Well, here's a simple example. Let $M=mathbbR$ and let $E$ be the trivial bundle $MtimesmathbbR^2$. You say to pick a 1-dimensional subspace $F_p$ of each fiber, so let's do so as follows. If $p=0$, then $F_p=ptimes 0timesmathbbR$. If $pneq0$, then $F_p=ptimesmathbbRtimes0$.



        You now say we can (locally) trivialize $G$ by just restricting a (local) trivialization of $E$. Well, in this case $E$ is globally trivial, so you'd be saying that $G$ is already trivial. But if we try to "restrict" our trivialization of $E$, we immediately hit a problem: there is no single subspace $VsubsetmathbbR^2$ such that $F_p=ptimes V$ for all $p$, so there is no obvious way to restrict our trivialization. We could try to define a trivialization $MtimesmathbbRto G$ that would be an isomorphism on each fiber, but such a map would not be continuous, since the fiber of $G$ "jumps" discontinuously at $0$. Indeed, $G$ is not a line bundle over $M$ at all.



        Now you might say I just made a dumb choice of 1-dimensional subspaces $F_p$. It would have been a lot smarter to pick $F_p=ptimesmathbbRtimes0$ for all $p$, instead of doing something crazy at $p=0$. Indeed, in that case $G$ would be a trivial line bundle and the obvious map $MtimesmathbbRto G$ would be an isomorphism of line bundles. But, what if our original bundle $E$ was not trivial? Then we could make a "smart" choice like this for $F_p$ in each local trivialization of $E$, but our choices of $F_p$ in different local trivialization that overlap might not be the same. There's no reason to believe we can choose $F_p$ consistently for all $p$ such that $G$ really is locally trivial everywhere.






        share|cite|improve this answer











        $endgroup$















          3












          3








          3





          $begingroup$

          Well, here's a simple example. Let $M=mathbbR$ and let $E$ be the trivial bundle $MtimesmathbbR^2$. You say to pick a 1-dimensional subspace $F_p$ of each fiber, so let's do so as follows. If $p=0$, then $F_p=ptimes 0timesmathbbR$. If $pneq0$, then $F_p=ptimesmathbbRtimes0$.



          You now say we can (locally) trivialize $G$ by just restricting a (local) trivialization of $E$. Well, in this case $E$ is globally trivial, so you'd be saying that $G$ is already trivial. But if we try to "restrict" our trivialization of $E$, we immediately hit a problem: there is no single subspace $VsubsetmathbbR^2$ such that $F_p=ptimes V$ for all $p$, so there is no obvious way to restrict our trivialization. We could try to define a trivialization $MtimesmathbbRto G$ that would be an isomorphism on each fiber, but such a map would not be continuous, since the fiber of $G$ "jumps" discontinuously at $0$. Indeed, $G$ is not a line bundle over $M$ at all.



          Now you might say I just made a dumb choice of 1-dimensional subspaces $F_p$. It would have been a lot smarter to pick $F_p=ptimesmathbbRtimes0$ for all $p$, instead of doing something crazy at $p=0$. Indeed, in that case $G$ would be a trivial line bundle and the obvious map $MtimesmathbbRto G$ would be an isomorphism of line bundles. But, what if our original bundle $E$ was not trivial? Then we could make a "smart" choice like this for $F_p$ in each local trivialization of $E$, but our choices of $F_p$ in different local trivialization that overlap might not be the same. There's no reason to believe we can choose $F_p$ consistently for all $p$ such that $G$ really is locally trivial everywhere.






          share|cite|improve this answer











          $endgroup$



          Well, here's a simple example. Let $M=mathbbR$ and let $E$ be the trivial bundle $MtimesmathbbR^2$. You say to pick a 1-dimensional subspace $F_p$ of each fiber, so let's do so as follows. If $p=0$, then $F_p=ptimes 0timesmathbbR$. If $pneq0$, then $F_p=ptimesmathbbRtimes0$.



          You now say we can (locally) trivialize $G$ by just restricting a (local) trivialization of $E$. Well, in this case $E$ is globally trivial, so you'd be saying that $G$ is already trivial. But if we try to "restrict" our trivialization of $E$, we immediately hit a problem: there is no single subspace $VsubsetmathbbR^2$ such that $F_p=ptimes V$ for all $p$, so there is no obvious way to restrict our trivialization. We could try to define a trivialization $MtimesmathbbRto G$ that would be an isomorphism on each fiber, but such a map would not be continuous, since the fiber of $G$ "jumps" discontinuously at $0$. Indeed, $G$ is not a line bundle over $M$ at all.



          Now you might say I just made a dumb choice of 1-dimensional subspaces $F_p$. It would have been a lot smarter to pick $F_p=ptimesmathbbRtimes0$ for all $p$, instead of doing something crazy at $p=0$. Indeed, in that case $G$ would be a trivial line bundle and the obvious map $MtimesmathbbRto G$ would be an isomorphism of line bundles. But, what if our original bundle $E$ was not trivial? Then we could make a "smart" choice like this for $F_p$ in each local trivialization of $E$, but our choices of $F_p$ in different local trivialization that overlap might not be the same. There's no reason to believe we can choose $F_p$ consistently for all $p$ such that $G$ really is locally trivial everywhere.







          share|cite|improve this answer














          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer








          edited 2 hours ago

























          answered 2 hours ago









          Eric WofseyEric Wofsey

          195k14224355




          195k14224355





















              0












              $begingroup$

              Some comments:



              1. The family of 1-dimensional subspaces $p mapsto F_p$ does indeed exist, by the axiom of choice.


              2. The set $sqcup_p in M F_p$ does indeed exist, by basic principles of set theory.


              3. There's a natural set-theoretic inclusion of $bigsqcup_p in M F_p$ into the total space $E$.


              4. By composing the distinguished map $E rightarrow M$ with the aforementioned inclusion, we get a surjective function from $sqcup_p in M F_p$ down onto the base space $M$.


              5. It remains to show that the map in $(3)$ is smooth. If we can show this, then the map in $(4)$ is smooth, and we're done.


              6. We can't show that the map in $(3)$ is smooth until we've chosen a manifold structure on $sqcup_p in M F_p.$


              7. Since the $F_p$ are arbitrary, getting an actual manifold structure on $sqcup_p in M F_p$ is usually going to be impossible. There's just no guarantee they'll fit together in such a way as to smoothly vary between fibers.


              8. In special cases we're able to choose $p mapsto F_p$ in a non-arbitrary way in order to prove that the particular vector bundle under question has an embedded line bundle.






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$

















                0












                $begingroup$

                Some comments:



                1. The family of 1-dimensional subspaces $p mapsto F_p$ does indeed exist, by the axiom of choice.


                2. The set $sqcup_p in M F_p$ does indeed exist, by basic principles of set theory.


                3. There's a natural set-theoretic inclusion of $bigsqcup_p in M F_p$ into the total space $E$.


                4. By composing the distinguished map $E rightarrow M$ with the aforementioned inclusion, we get a surjective function from $sqcup_p in M F_p$ down onto the base space $M$.


                5. It remains to show that the map in $(3)$ is smooth. If we can show this, then the map in $(4)$ is smooth, and we're done.


                6. We can't show that the map in $(3)$ is smooth until we've chosen a manifold structure on $sqcup_p in M F_p.$


                7. Since the $F_p$ are arbitrary, getting an actual manifold structure on $sqcup_p in M F_p$ is usually going to be impossible. There's just no guarantee they'll fit together in such a way as to smoothly vary between fibers.


                8. In special cases we're able to choose $p mapsto F_p$ in a non-arbitrary way in order to prove that the particular vector bundle under question has an embedded line bundle.






                share|cite|improve this answer









                $endgroup$















                  0












                  0








                  0





                  $begingroup$

                  Some comments:



                  1. The family of 1-dimensional subspaces $p mapsto F_p$ does indeed exist, by the axiom of choice.


                  2. The set $sqcup_p in M F_p$ does indeed exist, by basic principles of set theory.


                  3. There's a natural set-theoretic inclusion of $bigsqcup_p in M F_p$ into the total space $E$.


                  4. By composing the distinguished map $E rightarrow M$ with the aforementioned inclusion, we get a surjective function from $sqcup_p in M F_p$ down onto the base space $M$.


                  5. It remains to show that the map in $(3)$ is smooth. If we can show this, then the map in $(4)$ is smooth, and we're done.


                  6. We can't show that the map in $(3)$ is smooth until we've chosen a manifold structure on $sqcup_p in M F_p.$


                  7. Since the $F_p$ are arbitrary, getting an actual manifold structure on $sqcup_p in M F_p$ is usually going to be impossible. There's just no guarantee they'll fit together in such a way as to smoothly vary between fibers.


                  8. In special cases we're able to choose $p mapsto F_p$ in a non-arbitrary way in order to prove that the particular vector bundle under question has an embedded line bundle.






                  share|cite|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$



                  Some comments:



                  1. The family of 1-dimensional subspaces $p mapsto F_p$ does indeed exist, by the axiom of choice.


                  2. The set $sqcup_p in M F_p$ does indeed exist, by basic principles of set theory.


                  3. There's a natural set-theoretic inclusion of $bigsqcup_p in M F_p$ into the total space $E$.


                  4. By composing the distinguished map $E rightarrow M$ with the aforementioned inclusion, we get a surjective function from $sqcup_p in M F_p$ down onto the base space $M$.


                  5. It remains to show that the map in $(3)$ is smooth. If we can show this, then the map in $(4)$ is smooth, and we're done.


                  6. We can't show that the map in $(3)$ is smooth until we've chosen a manifold structure on $sqcup_p in M F_p.$


                  7. Since the $F_p$ are arbitrary, getting an actual manifold structure on $sqcup_p in M F_p$ is usually going to be impossible. There's just no guarantee they'll fit together in such a way as to smoothly vary between fibers.


                  8. In special cases we're able to choose $p mapsto F_p$ in a non-arbitrary way in order to prove that the particular vector bundle under question has an embedded line bundle.







                  share|cite|improve this answer












                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer










                  answered 1 hour ago









                  goblingoblin

                  37.2k1159197




                  37.2k1159197



























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