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Distinctness of solutions to a determinant equation.


Determinant of a random matrixJacobian determinant of unitary transformationValidity of this Determinant property.Is maximizing the trace of the inverse of a positive definite matrix with eigenvalues greater than $1$ the same as minimizing the determinant?Determinant of a symmetric almost-tridiagonal matrixThe meaning and logic of the determinant of a matrix, and matrices' cofactorsWhy can the determinant be assumed to be 0?Determinant of large square matrix (term by term multiplication with same size matrix)Using Cholesky decomposition to compute covariance matrix determinantHow to find the determinant of this matrix? (A spherical-Cartesian transformation Jacobian matrix)













2












$begingroup$


Lets say I have a matrix A with constants x and paramater Y in the following form:



$$A=
beginbmatrix
Y & x_12 & x_13 \
x_12 & Y & x_23 \
x_13 & x_23 & Y
endbmatrix
$$



I know that if all x are the same, then $det[A] = 0$ has only one solution for Y.



My proof here is to directly compute the determinant, and then solve the suppressed cubic.



I want to also prove that if not all x are the same, that det[A]=0 has 3 distinct solutions. This is slightly more than just the converse. Directly computing is very painful, and I was able to show it only with Mathematica.



My question is how to justify these two statements more elegantly.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    I disagree with your first conclusion. If all $x_ij = 1$ for instance, then we end up with the solutions $Y = 1,-2$.
    $endgroup$
    – Omnomnomnom
    3 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    In any case, your question is equivalent to asking about the multiplicity of the eigenvalues of the matrix $$ A = pmatrix0&x_12 & x_13\x_12&0&x_23\x_13&x_23&0 $$
    $endgroup$
    – Omnomnomnom
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    An example of a matrix where $det(A) = 0$ fails to have distinct solutions: $$ A = pmatrixY&2&3\4&Y&12\5&10&Y $$
    $endgroup$
    – Omnomnomnom
    3 hours ago







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Please note that the proposed matrix $A$ is symmetric! This means your conterexample isn't one.
    $endgroup$
    – Ingix
    3 hours ago
















2












$begingroup$


Lets say I have a matrix A with constants x and paramater Y in the following form:



$$A=
beginbmatrix
Y & x_12 & x_13 \
x_12 & Y & x_23 \
x_13 & x_23 & Y
endbmatrix
$$



I know that if all x are the same, then $det[A] = 0$ has only one solution for Y.



My proof here is to directly compute the determinant, and then solve the suppressed cubic.



I want to also prove that if not all x are the same, that det[A]=0 has 3 distinct solutions. This is slightly more than just the converse. Directly computing is very painful, and I was able to show it only with Mathematica.



My question is how to justify these two statements more elegantly.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    I disagree with your first conclusion. If all $x_ij = 1$ for instance, then we end up with the solutions $Y = 1,-2$.
    $endgroup$
    – Omnomnomnom
    3 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    In any case, your question is equivalent to asking about the multiplicity of the eigenvalues of the matrix $$ A = pmatrix0&x_12 & x_13\x_12&0&x_23\x_13&x_23&0 $$
    $endgroup$
    – Omnomnomnom
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    An example of a matrix where $det(A) = 0$ fails to have distinct solutions: $$ A = pmatrixY&2&3\4&Y&12\5&10&Y $$
    $endgroup$
    – Omnomnomnom
    3 hours ago







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Please note that the proposed matrix $A$ is symmetric! This means your conterexample isn't one.
    $endgroup$
    – Ingix
    3 hours ago














2












2








2





$begingroup$


Lets say I have a matrix A with constants x and paramater Y in the following form:



$$A=
beginbmatrix
Y & x_12 & x_13 \
x_12 & Y & x_23 \
x_13 & x_23 & Y
endbmatrix
$$



I know that if all x are the same, then $det[A] = 0$ has only one solution for Y.



My proof here is to directly compute the determinant, and then solve the suppressed cubic.



I want to also prove that if not all x are the same, that det[A]=0 has 3 distinct solutions. This is slightly more than just the converse. Directly computing is very painful, and I was able to show it only with Mathematica.



My question is how to justify these two statements more elegantly.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$




Lets say I have a matrix A with constants x and paramater Y in the following form:



$$A=
beginbmatrix
Y & x_12 & x_13 \
x_12 & Y & x_23 \
x_13 & x_23 & Y
endbmatrix
$$



I know that if all x are the same, then $det[A] = 0$ has only one solution for Y.



My proof here is to directly compute the determinant, and then solve the suppressed cubic.



I want to also prove that if not all x are the same, that det[A]=0 has 3 distinct solutions. This is slightly more than just the converse. Directly computing is very painful, and I was able to show it only with Mathematica.



My question is how to justify these two statements more elegantly.







matrices determinant






share|cite|improve this question















share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited 4 hours ago







Ion Sme

















asked 4 hours ago









Ion SmeIon Sme

12510




12510







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    I disagree with your first conclusion. If all $x_ij = 1$ for instance, then we end up with the solutions $Y = 1,-2$.
    $endgroup$
    – Omnomnomnom
    3 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    In any case, your question is equivalent to asking about the multiplicity of the eigenvalues of the matrix $$ A = pmatrix0&x_12 & x_13\x_12&0&x_23\x_13&x_23&0 $$
    $endgroup$
    – Omnomnomnom
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    An example of a matrix where $det(A) = 0$ fails to have distinct solutions: $$ A = pmatrixY&2&3\4&Y&12\5&10&Y $$
    $endgroup$
    – Omnomnomnom
    3 hours ago







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Please note that the proposed matrix $A$ is symmetric! This means your conterexample isn't one.
    $endgroup$
    – Ingix
    3 hours ago













  • 1




    $begingroup$
    I disagree with your first conclusion. If all $x_ij = 1$ for instance, then we end up with the solutions $Y = 1,-2$.
    $endgroup$
    – Omnomnomnom
    3 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    In any case, your question is equivalent to asking about the multiplicity of the eigenvalues of the matrix $$ A = pmatrix0&x_12 & x_13\x_12&0&x_23\x_13&x_23&0 $$
    $endgroup$
    – Omnomnomnom
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    An example of a matrix where $det(A) = 0$ fails to have distinct solutions: $$ A = pmatrixY&2&3\4&Y&12\5&10&Y $$
    $endgroup$
    – Omnomnomnom
    3 hours ago







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Please note that the proposed matrix $A$ is symmetric! This means your conterexample isn't one.
    $endgroup$
    – Ingix
    3 hours ago








1




1




$begingroup$
I disagree with your first conclusion. If all $x_ij = 1$ for instance, then we end up with the solutions $Y = 1,-2$.
$endgroup$
– Omnomnomnom
3 hours ago




$begingroup$
I disagree with your first conclusion. If all $x_ij = 1$ for instance, then we end up with the solutions $Y = 1,-2$.
$endgroup$
– Omnomnomnom
3 hours ago




1




1




$begingroup$
In any case, your question is equivalent to asking about the multiplicity of the eigenvalues of the matrix $$ A = pmatrix0&x_12 & x_13\x_12&0&x_23\x_13&x_23&0 $$
$endgroup$
– Omnomnomnom
3 hours ago




$begingroup$
In any case, your question is equivalent to asking about the multiplicity of the eigenvalues of the matrix $$ A = pmatrix0&x_12 & x_13\x_12&0&x_23\x_13&x_23&0 $$
$endgroup$
– Omnomnomnom
3 hours ago












$begingroup$
An example of a matrix where $det(A) = 0$ fails to have distinct solutions: $$ A = pmatrixY&2&3\4&Y&12\5&10&Y $$
$endgroup$
– Omnomnomnom
3 hours ago





$begingroup$
An example of a matrix where $det(A) = 0$ fails to have distinct solutions: $$ A = pmatrixY&2&3\4&Y&12\5&10&Y $$
$endgroup$
– Omnomnomnom
3 hours ago





1




1




$begingroup$
Please note that the proposed matrix $A$ is symmetric! This means your conterexample isn't one.
$endgroup$
– Ingix
3 hours ago





$begingroup$
Please note that the proposed matrix $A$ is symmetric! This means your conterexample isn't one.
$endgroup$
– Ingix
3 hours ago











2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















3












$begingroup$

Your first proposition is generally incorrect. If $x_12=x_13=x_23=x$, then both $Y_1,2=x$ and $Y_3=-2x$ are solutions of $det[A]=0$. Those are different for $x neq0$. In that case, the first solution has algebraic and geometric multiplicity $2$, the second algebraic and geometric multiplicity $1$.



ADDED after more thoughts about the second proposition:
The second proposition is true. It is easy to see that



$$det[A]=f(Y)=Y^3 + 2x_12x_13x_23 - Y(x^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_23)$$.



In order for $f(Y)=0$ to have a root with multiplicity > 1, it has to be also a root of $f'(Y)=0$, which means



$$f'(Y)=3Y^2-(x^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_23)=0,$$



which implies



$$Y=pmsqrtfracx^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_233.$$



Putting this into $f(Y)=0$ we get



$$0 = f(Y)=Y(Y^2-(x^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_23)) + 2x_12x_13x_23=-frac23(x^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_23)Y + 2x_12x_13x_23$$



which implies



$$x_12x_13x_23 = frac13(x^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_23)Y.$$



Squaring both sides yields to



$$(x_12x_13x_23)^2=frac19(x^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_23)^2Y^2 = frac19(x^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_23)^2fracx^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_233 =frac127(x^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_23)^3$$



This is the same condition as Yves Daoust arrived in his answer.



Now if we assume that all the $x_ij$ are real numbers, then this condition indeed implies that all $x_ij$ must be the same. That's because, as every $x_ij$ appears squared, we can generally assume that all $x_ij ge 0$. The one can apply the theorem of the inequality of quadratic and geometric mean:



$$sqrt[3]x_12x_13x_23 le sqrtfracx^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_233$$



Putting this inequality to the 6th power leads to



$$(x_12x_13x_23)^2le frac127(x^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_23)^3$$



and we know that equality (as required for a solution for $Y$ with multiplicity > 1) only happens if $x_12=x_13=x_23$.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$




















    2












    $begingroup$

    The polynomial is



    $$y^3-(x_12^2+x_23^2+x_13^2)y+2x_12x_23x_13.$$



    The multiplicity of the roots is determined by the discriminant,



    $$4p^3+27q^2propto-(x_12^2+x_23^2+x_13^2)^3+27(x_12x_23x_13)^2.$$






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$













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      2 Answers
      2






      active

      oldest

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      2 Answers
      2






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes









      3












      $begingroup$

      Your first proposition is generally incorrect. If $x_12=x_13=x_23=x$, then both $Y_1,2=x$ and $Y_3=-2x$ are solutions of $det[A]=0$. Those are different for $x neq0$. In that case, the first solution has algebraic and geometric multiplicity $2$, the second algebraic and geometric multiplicity $1$.



      ADDED after more thoughts about the second proposition:
      The second proposition is true. It is easy to see that



      $$det[A]=f(Y)=Y^3 + 2x_12x_13x_23 - Y(x^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_23)$$.



      In order for $f(Y)=0$ to have a root with multiplicity > 1, it has to be also a root of $f'(Y)=0$, which means



      $$f'(Y)=3Y^2-(x^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_23)=0,$$



      which implies



      $$Y=pmsqrtfracx^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_233.$$



      Putting this into $f(Y)=0$ we get



      $$0 = f(Y)=Y(Y^2-(x^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_23)) + 2x_12x_13x_23=-frac23(x^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_23)Y + 2x_12x_13x_23$$



      which implies



      $$x_12x_13x_23 = frac13(x^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_23)Y.$$



      Squaring both sides yields to



      $$(x_12x_13x_23)^2=frac19(x^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_23)^2Y^2 = frac19(x^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_23)^2fracx^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_233 =frac127(x^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_23)^3$$



      This is the same condition as Yves Daoust arrived in his answer.



      Now if we assume that all the $x_ij$ are real numbers, then this condition indeed implies that all $x_ij$ must be the same. That's because, as every $x_ij$ appears squared, we can generally assume that all $x_ij ge 0$. The one can apply the theorem of the inequality of quadratic and geometric mean:



      $$sqrt[3]x_12x_13x_23 le sqrtfracx^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_233$$



      Putting this inequality to the 6th power leads to



      $$(x_12x_13x_23)^2le frac127(x^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_23)^3$$



      and we know that equality (as required for a solution for $Y$ with multiplicity > 1) only happens if $x_12=x_13=x_23$.






      share|cite|improve this answer











      $endgroup$

















        3












        $begingroup$

        Your first proposition is generally incorrect. If $x_12=x_13=x_23=x$, then both $Y_1,2=x$ and $Y_3=-2x$ are solutions of $det[A]=0$. Those are different for $x neq0$. In that case, the first solution has algebraic and geometric multiplicity $2$, the second algebraic and geometric multiplicity $1$.



        ADDED after more thoughts about the second proposition:
        The second proposition is true. It is easy to see that



        $$det[A]=f(Y)=Y^3 + 2x_12x_13x_23 - Y(x^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_23)$$.



        In order for $f(Y)=0$ to have a root with multiplicity > 1, it has to be also a root of $f'(Y)=0$, which means



        $$f'(Y)=3Y^2-(x^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_23)=0,$$



        which implies



        $$Y=pmsqrtfracx^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_233.$$



        Putting this into $f(Y)=0$ we get



        $$0 = f(Y)=Y(Y^2-(x^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_23)) + 2x_12x_13x_23=-frac23(x^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_23)Y + 2x_12x_13x_23$$



        which implies



        $$x_12x_13x_23 = frac13(x^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_23)Y.$$



        Squaring both sides yields to



        $$(x_12x_13x_23)^2=frac19(x^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_23)^2Y^2 = frac19(x^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_23)^2fracx^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_233 =frac127(x^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_23)^3$$



        This is the same condition as Yves Daoust arrived in his answer.



        Now if we assume that all the $x_ij$ are real numbers, then this condition indeed implies that all $x_ij$ must be the same. That's because, as every $x_ij$ appears squared, we can generally assume that all $x_ij ge 0$. The one can apply the theorem of the inequality of quadratic and geometric mean:



        $$sqrt[3]x_12x_13x_23 le sqrtfracx^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_233$$



        Putting this inequality to the 6th power leads to



        $$(x_12x_13x_23)^2le frac127(x^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_23)^3$$



        and we know that equality (as required for a solution for $Y$ with multiplicity > 1) only happens if $x_12=x_13=x_23$.






        share|cite|improve this answer











        $endgroup$















          3












          3








          3





          $begingroup$

          Your first proposition is generally incorrect. If $x_12=x_13=x_23=x$, then both $Y_1,2=x$ and $Y_3=-2x$ are solutions of $det[A]=0$. Those are different for $x neq0$. In that case, the first solution has algebraic and geometric multiplicity $2$, the second algebraic and geometric multiplicity $1$.



          ADDED after more thoughts about the second proposition:
          The second proposition is true. It is easy to see that



          $$det[A]=f(Y)=Y^3 + 2x_12x_13x_23 - Y(x^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_23)$$.



          In order for $f(Y)=0$ to have a root with multiplicity > 1, it has to be also a root of $f'(Y)=0$, which means



          $$f'(Y)=3Y^2-(x^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_23)=0,$$



          which implies



          $$Y=pmsqrtfracx^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_233.$$



          Putting this into $f(Y)=0$ we get



          $$0 = f(Y)=Y(Y^2-(x^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_23)) + 2x_12x_13x_23=-frac23(x^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_23)Y + 2x_12x_13x_23$$



          which implies



          $$x_12x_13x_23 = frac13(x^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_23)Y.$$



          Squaring both sides yields to



          $$(x_12x_13x_23)^2=frac19(x^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_23)^2Y^2 = frac19(x^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_23)^2fracx^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_233 =frac127(x^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_23)^3$$



          This is the same condition as Yves Daoust arrived in his answer.



          Now if we assume that all the $x_ij$ are real numbers, then this condition indeed implies that all $x_ij$ must be the same. That's because, as every $x_ij$ appears squared, we can generally assume that all $x_ij ge 0$. The one can apply the theorem of the inequality of quadratic and geometric mean:



          $$sqrt[3]x_12x_13x_23 le sqrtfracx^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_233$$



          Putting this inequality to the 6th power leads to



          $$(x_12x_13x_23)^2le frac127(x^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_23)^3$$



          and we know that equality (as required for a solution for $Y$ with multiplicity > 1) only happens if $x_12=x_13=x_23$.






          share|cite|improve this answer











          $endgroup$



          Your first proposition is generally incorrect. If $x_12=x_13=x_23=x$, then both $Y_1,2=x$ and $Y_3=-2x$ are solutions of $det[A]=0$. Those are different for $x neq0$. In that case, the first solution has algebraic and geometric multiplicity $2$, the second algebraic and geometric multiplicity $1$.



          ADDED after more thoughts about the second proposition:
          The second proposition is true. It is easy to see that



          $$det[A]=f(Y)=Y^3 + 2x_12x_13x_23 - Y(x^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_23)$$.



          In order for $f(Y)=0$ to have a root with multiplicity > 1, it has to be also a root of $f'(Y)=0$, which means



          $$f'(Y)=3Y^2-(x^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_23)=0,$$



          which implies



          $$Y=pmsqrtfracx^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_233.$$



          Putting this into $f(Y)=0$ we get



          $$0 = f(Y)=Y(Y^2-(x^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_23)) + 2x_12x_13x_23=-frac23(x^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_23)Y + 2x_12x_13x_23$$



          which implies



          $$x_12x_13x_23 = frac13(x^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_23)Y.$$



          Squaring both sides yields to



          $$(x_12x_13x_23)^2=frac19(x^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_23)^2Y^2 = frac19(x^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_23)^2fracx^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_233 =frac127(x^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_23)^3$$



          This is the same condition as Yves Daoust arrived in his answer.



          Now if we assume that all the $x_ij$ are real numbers, then this condition indeed implies that all $x_ij$ must be the same. That's because, as every $x_ij$ appears squared, we can generally assume that all $x_ij ge 0$. The one can apply the theorem of the inequality of quadratic and geometric mean:



          $$sqrt[3]x_12x_13x_23 le sqrtfracx^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_233$$



          Putting this inequality to the 6th power leads to



          $$(x_12x_13x_23)^2le frac127(x^2_12 + x^2_13 + x^2_23)^3$$



          and we know that equality (as required for a solution for $Y$ with multiplicity > 1) only happens if $x_12=x_13=x_23$.







          share|cite|improve this answer














          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer








          edited 3 hours ago

























          answered 3 hours ago









          IngixIngix

          5,477259




          5,477259





















              2












              $begingroup$

              The polynomial is



              $$y^3-(x_12^2+x_23^2+x_13^2)y+2x_12x_23x_13.$$



              The multiplicity of the roots is determined by the discriminant,



              $$4p^3+27q^2propto-(x_12^2+x_23^2+x_13^2)^3+27(x_12x_23x_13)^2.$$






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$

















                2












                $begingroup$

                The polynomial is



                $$y^3-(x_12^2+x_23^2+x_13^2)y+2x_12x_23x_13.$$



                The multiplicity of the roots is determined by the discriminant,



                $$4p^3+27q^2propto-(x_12^2+x_23^2+x_13^2)^3+27(x_12x_23x_13)^2.$$






                share|cite|improve this answer









                $endgroup$















                  2












                  2








                  2





                  $begingroup$

                  The polynomial is



                  $$y^3-(x_12^2+x_23^2+x_13^2)y+2x_12x_23x_13.$$



                  The multiplicity of the roots is determined by the discriminant,



                  $$4p^3+27q^2propto-(x_12^2+x_23^2+x_13^2)^3+27(x_12x_23x_13)^2.$$






                  share|cite|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$



                  The polynomial is



                  $$y^3-(x_12^2+x_23^2+x_13^2)y+2x_12x_23x_13.$$



                  The multiplicity of the roots is determined by the discriminant,



                  $$4p^3+27q^2propto-(x_12^2+x_23^2+x_13^2)^3+27(x_12x_23x_13)^2.$$







                  share|cite|improve this answer












                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer










                  answered 3 hours ago









                  Yves DaoustYves Daoust

                  135k676233




                  135k676233



























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