Models of set theory where not every set can be linearly ordered Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)Proving “every set can be totally ordered” without using Axiom of ChoiceExample of a model in set theory where the axiom of extensionality does not hold?Zorn's lemma and maximal linearly ordered subsetsDedekind finite set and a special well ordered setModels in set theory and continuum hypothesisCan every non-empty set satisfying the axioms of $sfZF$ be totally ordered?Ordinal enumeration in ordered Mostowski model - does it not need the global choice?Every transitive $in$-linearly ordered set is $in$-well ordered without axiom of foundationConfusion about countable models of ZF set theory.the power set of every well-ordered set is well-ordered implies well orderingEvery countable linearly ordered set is similar to one of its subsets
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Models of set theory where not every set can be linearly ordered
Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)Proving “every set can be totally ordered” without using Axiom of ChoiceExample of a model in set theory where the axiom of extensionality does not hold?Zorn's lemma and maximal linearly ordered subsetsDedekind finite set and a special well ordered setModels in set theory and continuum hypothesisCan every non-empty set satisfying the axioms of $sfZF$ be totally ordered?Ordinal enumeration in ordered Mostowski model - does it not need the global choice?Every transitive $in$-linearly ordered set is $in$-well ordered without axiom of foundationConfusion about countable models of ZF set theory.the power set of every well-ordered set is well-ordered implies well orderingEvery countable linearly ordered set is similar to one of its subsets
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Can anybody point me towards a model of set theory where not every set can be linearly ordered, and a corresponding proof. I have seen it claimed that in Fraenkels second permutation model that there is a set that cannot be linearly ordered, but cannot find a proof.
set-theory axiom-of-choice
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LGar is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
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add a comment |
$begingroup$
Can anybody point me towards a model of set theory where not every set can be linearly ordered, and a corresponding proof. I have seen it claimed that in Fraenkels second permutation model that there is a set that cannot be linearly ordered, but cannot find a proof.
set-theory axiom-of-choice
New contributor
LGar is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
In the case of the Fraenkel model, would this just come down to saying that any linear ordering would have a finite support, and then we just consider a permutation of two atoms outside of said support?
$endgroup$
– LGar
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
Yes, by the way, a direct argument in both the models of Fraenkel is that any linear order would have a finite support and we can find a permutation that moves some things in an incongruous way.
$endgroup$
– Asaf Karagila♦
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
Possible duplicate of Proving "every set can be totally ordered" without using Axiom of Choice
$endgroup$
– YuiTo Cheng
30 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Can anybody point me towards a model of set theory where not every set can be linearly ordered, and a corresponding proof. I have seen it claimed that in Fraenkels second permutation model that there is a set that cannot be linearly ordered, but cannot find a proof.
set-theory axiom-of-choice
New contributor
LGar is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
$endgroup$
Can anybody point me towards a model of set theory where not every set can be linearly ordered, and a corresponding proof. I have seen it claimed that in Fraenkels second permutation model that there is a set that cannot be linearly ordered, but cannot find a proof.
set-theory axiom-of-choice
set-theory axiom-of-choice
New contributor
LGar is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
LGar is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
edited 2 hours ago
Asaf Karagila♦
308k33441775
308k33441775
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asked 4 hours ago
LGarLGar
385
385
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$begingroup$
In the case of the Fraenkel model, would this just come down to saying that any linear ordering would have a finite support, and then we just consider a permutation of two atoms outside of said support?
$endgroup$
– LGar
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
Yes, by the way, a direct argument in both the models of Fraenkel is that any linear order would have a finite support and we can find a permutation that moves some things in an incongruous way.
$endgroup$
– Asaf Karagila♦
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
Possible duplicate of Proving "every set can be totally ordered" without using Axiom of Choice
$endgroup$
– YuiTo Cheng
30 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In the case of the Fraenkel model, would this just come down to saying that any linear ordering would have a finite support, and then we just consider a permutation of two atoms outside of said support?
$endgroup$
– LGar
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
Yes, by the way, a direct argument in both the models of Fraenkel is that any linear order would have a finite support and we can find a permutation that moves some things in an incongruous way.
$endgroup$
– Asaf Karagila♦
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
Possible duplicate of Proving "every set can be totally ordered" without using Axiom of Choice
$endgroup$
– YuiTo Cheng
30 mins ago
$begingroup$
In the case of the Fraenkel model, would this just come down to saying that any linear ordering would have a finite support, and then we just consider a permutation of two atoms outside of said support?
$endgroup$
– LGar
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
In the case of the Fraenkel model, would this just come down to saying that any linear ordering would have a finite support, and then we just consider a permutation of two atoms outside of said support?
$endgroup$
– LGar
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
Yes, by the way, a direct argument in both the models of Fraenkel is that any linear order would have a finite support and we can find a permutation that moves some things in an incongruous way.
$endgroup$
– Asaf Karagila♦
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
Yes, by the way, a direct argument in both the models of Fraenkel is that any linear order would have a finite support and we can find a permutation that moves some things in an incongruous way.
$endgroup$
– Asaf Karagila♦
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
Possible duplicate of Proving "every set can be totally ordered" without using Axiom of Choice
$endgroup$
– YuiTo Cheng
30 mins ago
$begingroup$
Possible duplicate of Proving "every set can be totally ordered" without using Axiom of Choice
$endgroup$
– YuiTo Cheng
30 mins ago
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
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Yes, both of Fraenkel's models are examples of such models. To see why note that:
In the first model, the atoms are an amorphous set. Namely, there cannot be split into two infinite sets. An amorphous set cannot be linearly ordered. To see why, note that $ain Amid atext defines a finite initial segment$ is either finite or co-finite. Assume it's co-finite, otherwise take the reverse order, then by removing finitely many elements we have a linear ordering where every proper initial segment is finite. This defines a bijection with $omega$, of course. So the set can be split into two infinite sets after all.
In the second model, the atoms can be written as a countable union of pairs which do not have a choice function. If the atoms were linearly orderable in that model, then we could have defined a choice function from the pairs: take the smallest one.
For models of $sf ZF$ one can imitate Fraenkel's construction using sets-of-sets-of Cohen reals as your atoms. This can be found in Jech's "Axiom of Choice" book in Chapter 5, as Cohen's second model.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
An interesting example of a different kind is any model where all sets of reals have the Baire property. In any such set the quotient of $mathbb R$ by the Vitali equivalence relation is not linearly orderable. See here for a sketch.
Examples of such models are Solovay's model where all sets of reals are Lebesgue measurable, or natural models of the axiom of determinacy, or Shelah's model from section 7 of
MR0768264 (86g:03082a). Shelah, Saharon. Can you take Solovay's inaccessible away? Israel J. Math. 48 (1984), no. 1, 1–47.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Good examples, albeit significantly more complicated! :-)
$endgroup$
– Asaf Karagila♦
2 hours ago
add a comment |
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$begingroup$
Yes, both of Fraenkel's models are examples of such models. To see why note that:
In the first model, the atoms are an amorphous set. Namely, there cannot be split into two infinite sets. An amorphous set cannot be linearly ordered. To see why, note that $ain Amid atext defines a finite initial segment$ is either finite or co-finite. Assume it's co-finite, otherwise take the reverse order, then by removing finitely many elements we have a linear ordering where every proper initial segment is finite. This defines a bijection with $omega$, of course. So the set can be split into two infinite sets after all.
In the second model, the atoms can be written as a countable union of pairs which do not have a choice function. If the atoms were linearly orderable in that model, then we could have defined a choice function from the pairs: take the smallest one.
For models of $sf ZF$ one can imitate Fraenkel's construction using sets-of-sets-of Cohen reals as your atoms. This can be found in Jech's "Axiom of Choice" book in Chapter 5, as Cohen's second model.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Yes, both of Fraenkel's models are examples of such models. To see why note that:
In the first model, the atoms are an amorphous set. Namely, there cannot be split into two infinite sets. An amorphous set cannot be linearly ordered. To see why, note that $ain Amid atext defines a finite initial segment$ is either finite or co-finite. Assume it's co-finite, otherwise take the reverse order, then by removing finitely many elements we have a linear ordering where every proper initial segment is finite. This defines a bijection with $omega$, of course. So the set can be split into two infinite sets after all.
In the second model, the atoms can be written as a countable union of pairs which do not have a choice function. If the atoms were linearly orderable in that model, then we could have defined a choice function from the pairs: take the smallest one.
For models of $sf ZF$ one can imitate Fraenkel's construction using sets-of-sets-of Cohen reals as your atoms. This can be found in Jech's "Axiom of Choice" book in Chapter 5, as Cohen's second model.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Yes, both of Fraenkel's models are examples of such models. To see why note that:
In the first model, the atoms are an amorphous set. Namely, there cannot be split into two infinite sets. An amorphous set cannot be linearly ordered. To see why, note that $ain Amid atext defines a finite initial segment$ is either finite or co-finite. Assume it's co-finite, otherwise take the reverse order, then by removing finitely many elements we have a linear ordering where every proper initial segment is finite. This defines a bijection with $omega$, of course. So the set can be split into two infinite sets after all.
In the second model, the atoms can be written as a countable union of pairs which do not have a choice function. If the atoms were linearly orderable in that model, then we could have defined a choice function from the pairs: take the smallest one.
For models of $sf ZF$ one can imitate Fraenkel's construction using sets-of-sets-of Cohen reals as your atoms. This can be found in Jech's "Axiom of Choice" book in Chapter 5, as Cohen's second model.
$endgroup$
Yes, both of Fraenkel's models are examples of such models. To see why note that:
In the first model, the atoms are an amorphous set. Namely, there cannot be split into two infinite sets. An amorphous set cannot be linearly ordered. To see why, note that $ain Amid atext defines a finite initial segment$ is either finite or co-finite. Assume it's co-finite, otherwise take the reverse order, then by removing finitely many elements we have a linear ordering where every proper initial segment is finite. This defines a bijection with $omega$, of course. So the set can be split into two infinite sets after all.
In the second model, the atoms can be written as a countable union of pairs which do not have a choice function. If the atoms were linearly orderable in that model, then we could have defined a choice function from the pairs: take the smallest one.
For models of $sf ZF$ one can imitate Fraenkel's construction using sets-of-sets-of Cohen reals as your atoms. This can be found in Jech's "Axiom of Choice" book in Chapter 5, as Cohen's second model.
answered 4 hours ago
Asaf Karagila♦Asaf Karagila
308k33441775
308k33441775
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
An interesting example of a different kind is any model where all sets of reals have the Baire property. In any such set the quotient of $mathbb R$ by the Vitali equivalence relation is not linearly orderable. See here for a sketch.
Examples of such models are Solovay's model where all sets of reals are Lebesgue measurable, or natural models of the axiom of determinacy, or Shelah's model from section 7 of
MR0768264 (86g:03082a). Shelah, Saharon. Can you take Solovay's inaccessible away? Israel J. Math. 48 (1984), no. 1, 1–47.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Good examples, albeit significantly more complicated! :-)
$endgroup$
– Asaf Karagila♦
2 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
An interesting example of a different kind is any model where all sets of reals have the Baire property. In any such set the quotient of $mathbb R$ by the Vitali equivalence relation is not linearly orderable. See here for a sketch.
Examples of such models are Solovay's model where all sets of reals are Lebesgue measurable, or natural models of the axiom of determinacy, or Shelah's model from section 7 of
MR0768264 (86g:03082a). Shelah, Saharon. Can you take Solovay's inaccessible away? Israel J. Math. 48 (1984), no. 1, 1–47.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Good examples, albeit significantly more complicated! :-)
$endgroup$
– Asaf Karagila♦
2 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
An interesting example of a different kind is any model where all sets of reals have the Baire property. In any such set the quotient of $mathbb R$ by the Vitali equivalence relation is not linearly orderable. See here for a sketch.
Examples of such models are Solovay's model where all sets of reals are Lebesgue measurable, or natural models of the axiom of determinacy, or Shelah's model from section 7 of
MR0768264 (86g:03082a). Shelah, Saharon. Can you take Solovay's inaccessible away? Israel J. Math. 48 (1984), no. 1, 1–47.
$endgroup$
An interesting example of a different kind is any model where all sets of reals have the Baire property. In any such set the quotient of $mathbb R$ by the Vitali equivalence relation is not linearly orderable. See here for a sketch.
Examples of such models are Solovay's model where all sets of reals are Lebesgue measurable, or natural models of the axiom of determinacy, or Shelah's model from section 7 of
MR0768264 (86g:03082a). Shelah, Saharon. Can you take Solovay's inaccessible away? Israel J. Math. 48 (1984), no. 1, 1–47.
answered 3 hours ago
Andrés E. CaicedoAndrés E. Caicedo
66.1k8160252
66.1k8160252
1
$begingroup$
Good examples, albeit significantly more complicated! :-)
$endgroup$
– Asaf Karagila♦
2 hours ago
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
Good examples, albeit significantly more complicated! :-)
$endgroup$
– Asaf Karagila♦
2 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Good examples, albeit significantly more complicated! :-)
$endgroup$
– Asaf Karagila♦
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
Good examples, albeit significantly more complicated! :-)
$endgroup$
– Asaf Karagila♦
2 hours ago
add a comment |
LGar is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
LGar is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
LGar is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
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$begingroup$
In the case of the Fraenkel model, would this just come down to saying that any linear ordering would have a finite support, and then we just consider a permutation of two atoms outside of said support?
$endgroup$
– LGar
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
Yes, by the way, a direct argument in both the models of Fraenkel is that any linear order would have a finite support and we can find a permutation that moves some things in an incongruous way.
$endgroup$
– Asaf Karagila♦
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
Possible duplicate of Proving "every set can be totally ordered" without using Axiom of Choice
$endgroup$
– YuiTo Cheng
30 mins ago