What is the evidence that custom checks in Northern Ireland are going to result in violence? Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara Planned maintenance scheduled April 23, 2019 at 23:30 UTC (7:30pm US/Eastern)Why don't hard Brexiteers insist on a hard border to prevent illegal immigration after Brexit?Why are the nationalists and unionists in Ireland & Northern Ireland OK with using violence?Why is having border controls in Ireland so problematic for Irish nationalists?Does the UK-EU Joint Report essentially remove any leverage the UK has in further negotiations?UK Chequers and Facilitated Customs ArrangementCould the UK “take Ireland hostage?”No-deal Brexit and Irish border; can third countries transit through Republic of Ireland?How do Brexiteers interpret Trump's insistence on a wall?Would it be plausible to solve the Irish Border issue by unifying Ireland?A vote on the Brexit backstopWhy is a “hard border” between Eire and Northern Ireland such a problem for EU/UK negotiations around brexit?Is French Guiana a (hard) EU border?
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What is the evidence that custom checks in Northern Ireland are going to result in violence?
Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
Planned maintenance scheduled April 23, 2019 at 23:30 UTC (7:30pm US/Eastern)Why don't hard Brexiteers insist on a hard border to prevent illegal immigration after Brexit?Why are the nationalists and unionists in Ireland & Northern Ireland OK with using violence?Why is having border controls in Ireland so problematic for Irish nationalists?Does the UK-EU Joint Report essentially remove any leverage the UK has in further negotiations?UK Chequers and Facilitated Customs ArrangementCould the UK “take Ireland hostage?”No-deal Brexit and Irish border; can third countries transit through Republic of Ireland?How do Brexiteers interpret Trump's insistence on a wall?Would it be plausible to solve the Irish Border issue by unifying Ireland?A vote on the Brexit backstopWhy is a “hard border” between Eire and Northern Ireland such a problem for EU/UK negotiations around brexit?Is French Guiana a (hard) EU border?
UPDATE: I reformulated my question to stress that my focus is on the influence of customs checks, not on the violence in Northern Ireland in general.
My impression is that the EU and most British supporters of a soft Brexit agree that any solution that involves customs border between Ireland and Northern Ireland is dangerous. Is it?
According to my experience, over 95% of private traffic on the customs border between Sweden and Norway passes through without stopping. I assume that a similar arrangement could be used on the Irish border.
Is there evidence that irregular spot-checking of a small minority of private traffic by customs officers would provoke violence?
Notes:
I'm sure that military posts on the border could easily become targets of violence, which is something that happened during The Troubles, but this is very different from hardly noticeable customs posts that let the great majority of private traffic pass through (which is the case on the border between Sweden and Norway).
I know that Northern Ireland is more violent than the European average, as shown by the murder of Lyra McKee, but this does not prove that lightweight customs checks would lead to increased violence.
brexit borders northern-ireland
|
show 1 more comment
UPDATE: I reformulated my question to stress that my focus is on the influence of customs checks, not on the violence in Northern Ireland in general.
My impression is that the EU and most British supporters of a soft Brexit agree that any solution that involves customs border between Ireland and Northern Ireland is dangerous. Is it?
According to my experience, over 95% of private traffic on the customs border between Sweden and Norway passes through without stopping. I assume that a similar arrangement could be used on the Irish border.
Is there evidence that irregular spot-checking of a small minority of private traffic by customs officers would provoke violence?
Notes:
I'm sure that military posts on the border could easily become targets of violence, which is something that happened during The Troubles, but this is very different from hardly noticeable customs posts that let the great majority of private traffic pass through (which is the case on the border between Sweden and Norway).
I know that Northern Ireland is more violent than the European average, as shown by the murder of Lyra McKee, but this does not prove that lightweight customs checks would lead to increased violence.
brexit borders northern-ireland
4
And if you were a guy who thought that a part of Sweden belonged to Norway, and so that you should be able to travel to that part without having your id checked, how would you react if some did check it? (Assume you had guns and bombs at your disposal too.) Like this maybe: bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-14320577/…
– Fizz
9 hours ago
Or like this?
– Fizz
9 hours ago
You might be interested: politics.stackexchange.com/questions/34511/…
– Allure
2 hours ago
@Fizz A lot of cars are stopped and checked by British traffic police in Northern Ireland every day, and it hasn't led to particularly high violence in the last 20 years. What is so different about cars being stopped by British customs officers? Both situations show British dominance over Northern Ireland and are probably equally unacceptable and offensive to radical Irish Republicans.
– michau
54 mins ago
1
@michau huge efforts have been expended to make the NI police force acceptable to republicans, including renaming it, creating an oversight board, and taking steps to increase non-unionist membership of the force. Perhaps having a separate customs force for Northern Ireland with similar governance would make it more palatable, but the police force does not call attention to the existence of the border, while customs enforcement would. Symbolism is important.
– phoog
35 mins ago
|
show 1 more comment
UPDATE: I reformulated my question to stress that my focus is on the influence of customs checks, not on the violence in Northern Ireland in general.
My impression is that the EU and most British supporters of a soft Brexit agree that any solution that involves customs border between Ireland and Northern Ireland is dangerous. Is it?
According to my experience, over 95% of private traffic on the customs border between Sweden and Norway passes through without stopping. I assume that a similar arrangement could be used on the Irish border.
Is there evidence that irregular spot-checking of a small minority of private traffic by customs officers would provoke violence?
Notes:
I'm sure that military posts on the border could easily become targets of violence, which is something that happened during The Troubles, but this is very different from hardly noticeable customs posts that let the great majority of private traffic pass through (which is the case on the border between Sweden and Norway).
I know that Northern Ireland is more violent than the European average, as shown by the murder of Lyra McKee, but this does not prove that lightweight customs checks would lead to increased violence.
brexit borders northern-ireland
UPDATE: I reformulated my question to stress that my focus is on the influence of customs checks, not on the violence in Northern Ireland in general.
My impression is that the EU and most British supporters of a soft Brexit agree that any solution that involves customs border between Ireland and Northern Ireland is dangerous. Is it?
According to my experience, over 95% of private traffic on the customs border between Sweden and Norway passes through without stopping. I assume that a similar arrangement could be used on the Irish border.
Is there evidence that irregular spot-checking of a small minority of private traffic by customs officers would provoke violence?
Notes:
I'm sure that military posts on the border could easily become targets of violence, which is something that happened during The Troubles, but this is very different from hardly noticeable customs posts that let the great majority of private traffic pass through (which is the case on the border between Sweden and Norway).
I know that Northern Ireland is more violent than the European average, as shown by the murder of Lyra McKee, but this does not prove that lightweight customs checks would lead to increased violence.
brexit borders northern-ireland
brexit borders northern-ireland
edited 41 mins ago
michau
asked 9 hours ago
michaumichau
24418
24418
4
And if you were a guy who thought that a part of Sweden belonged to Norway, and so that you should be able to travel to that part without having your id checked, how would you react if some did check it? (Assume you had guns and bombs at your disposal too.) Like this maybe: bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-14320577/…
– Fizz
9 hours ago
Or like this?
– Fizz
9 hours ago
You might be interested: politics.stackexchange.com/questions/34511/…
– Allure
2 hours ago
@Fizz A lot of cars are stopped and checked by British traffic police in Northern Ireland every day, and it hasn't led to particularly high violence in the last 20 years. What is so different about cars being stopped by British customs officers? Both situations show British dominance over Northern Ireland and are probably equally unacceptable and offensive to radical Irish Republicans.
– michau
54 mins ago
1
@michau huge efforts have been expended to make the NI police force acceptable to republicans, including renaming it, creating an oversight board, and taking steps to increase non-unionist membership of the force. Perhaps having a separate customs force for Northern Ireland with similar governance would make it more palatable, but the police force does not call attention to the existence of the border, while customs enforcement would. Symbolism is important.
– phoog
35 mins ago
|
show 1 more comment
4
And if you were a guy who thought that a part of Sweden belonged to Norway, and so that you should be able to travel to that part without having your id checked, how would you react if some did check it? (Assume you had guns and bombs at your disposal too.) Like this maybe: bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-14320577/…
– Fizz
9 hours ago
Or like this?
– Fizz
9 hours ago
You might be interested: politics.stackexchange.com/questions/34511/…
– Allure
2 hours ago
@Fizz A lot of cars are stopped and checked by British traffic police in Northern Ireland every day, and it hasn't led to particularly high violence in the last 20 years. What is so different about cars being stopped by British customs officers? Both situations show British dominance over Northern Ireland and are probably equally unacceptable and offensive to radical Irish Republicans.
– michau
54 mins ago
1
@michau huge efforts have been expended to make the NI police force acceptable to republicans, including renaming it, creating an oversight board, and taking steps to increase non-unionist membership of the force. Perhaps having a separate customs force for Northern Ireland with similar governance would make it more palatable, but the police force does not call attention to the existence of the border, while customs enforcement would. Symbolism is important.
– phoog
35 mins ago
4
4
And if you were a guy who thought that a part of Sweden belonged to Norway, and so that you should be able to travel to that part without having your id checked, how would you react if some did check it? (Assume you had guns and bombs at your disposal too.) Like this maybe: bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-14320577/…
– Fizz
9 hours ago
And if you were a guy who thought that a part of Sweden belonged to Norway, and so that you should be able to travel to that part without having your id checked, how would you react if some did check it? (Assume you had guns and bombs at your disposal too.) Like this maybe: bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-14320577/…
– Fizz
9 hours ago
Or like this?
– Fizz
9 hours ago
Or like this?
– Fizz
9 hours ago
You might be interested: politics.stackexchange.com/questions/34511/…
– Allure
2 hours ago
You might be interested: politics.stackexchange.com/questions/34511/…
– Allure
2 hours ago
@Fizz A lot of cars are stopped and checked by British traffic police in Northern Ireland every day, and it hasn't led to particularly high violence in the last 20 years. What is so different about cars being stopped by British customs officers? Both situations show British dominance over Northern Ireland and are probably equally unacceptable and offensive to radical Irish Republicans.
– michau
54 mins ago
@Fizz A lot of cars are stopped and checked by British traffic police in Northern Ireland every day, and it hasn't led to particularly high violence in the last 20 years. What is so different about cars being stopped by British customs officers? Both situations show British dominance over Northern Ireland and are probably equally unacceptable and offensive to radical Irish Republicans.
– michau
54 mins ago
1
1
@michau huge efforts have been expended to make the NI police force acceptable to republicans, including renaming it, creating an oversight board, and taking steps to increase non-unionist membership of the force. Perhaps having a separate customs force for Northern Ireland with similar governance would make it more palatable, but the police force does not call attention to the existence of the border, while customs enforcement would. Symbolism is important.
– phoog
35 mins ago
@michau huge efforts have been expended to make the NI police force acceptable to republicans, including renaming it, creating an oversight board, and taking steps to increase non-unionist membership of the force. Perhaps having a separate customs force for Northern Ireland with similar governance would make it more palatable, but the police force does not call attention to the existence of the border, while customs enforcement would. Symbolism is important.
– phoog
35 mins ago
|
show 1 more comment
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
New here, but there's a misconception in your question. The worry over the border isn't about some trade disputes and companies turning ugly over tariffs; this is about the establishment of any border at all between 2 regions of Ireland.
I definitely can't go into all the details but here's a reference to the Wikipedia on The Troubles which is central to this conversation. From there, some simple Google foo will let you find more information on the violence that was happening within a generation ago over this very border. The Good Friday Agreement is a good place to start as well, although there is debate over whether that prevents trade checkpoints or ALL checkpoints. See other questions on this very site.
And as for evidence of violence well.... This happened just a few days ago
New contributor
I know about The Troubles, but the checkpoints in that period were very different from custom posts that e.g. Norway has. Your argument seems to be: "Military posts provoked violence, therefore violence will be also provoked by hardly noticeable customs posts that let the great majority of private traffic pass through". That doesn't sound very convincing. Also note that I'm asking about violence caused by custom checks, so the murder of Lyra McKee is hardly relevant here.
– michau
38 secs ago
add a comment |
To expand on Red Mage's answer, Wikipedia has a timeline of the Northern Ireland Troubles and peace process. To better understand it, it's good to note that the Good Friday Agreement was effective from December 1999.
Since the Wikipedia list is chronological, a good way to visualise the violence is to use the search option in your browser (which adds little yellow stripes in the scrollbar where the search term occurs).
For example, when we search for the word 'shot', we see many more instances before the turn of the millennium than after it. Other frequent terms include 'bomb', 'explosive', 'killed' and 'wound'. Notice that each of these terms are unlikely to be associated with other EU borders, it's not something you'd expect on the peaceful continent of Europe.
Another good way to read into the situation is to follow up on Wikipedia's references. The link to more extensive news articles which add a lot of context. It should also be noted that the list seems properly maintained. For example, the shooting of the journalist around the 2019 Easter weekend is not yet listed on that page because it's not yet confirmed to be related to the Troubles (though as explained in Red Mage's link, the police says the 'New IRA' is likely to be behind it).
I'm asking about evidence that adding customs posts would result in increased violence (in particular, even when performing just lightweight custom checks that let the great majority of private traffic pass through). I can't see anything in your answer specifically related to this topic. The Wikipedia page you've linked to doesn't even contain the word "customs".
– michau
39 mins ago
add a comment |
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2 Answers
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2 Answers
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New here, but there's a misconception in your question. The worry over the border isn't about some trade disputes and companies turning ugly over tariffs; this is about the establishment of any border at all between 2 regions of Ireland.
I definitely can't go into all the details but here's a reference to the Wikipedia on The Troubles which is central to this conversation. From there, some simple Google foo will let you find more information on the violence that was happening within a generation ago over this very border. The Good Friday Agreement is a good place to start as well, although there is debate over whether that prevents trade checkpoints or ALL checkpoints. See other questions on this very site.
And as for evidence of violence well.... This happened just a few days ago
New contributor
I know about The Troubles, but the checkpoints in that period were very different from custom posts that e.g. Norway has. Your argument seems to be: "Military posts provoked violence, therefore violence will be also provoked by hardly noticeable customs posts that let the great majority of private traffic pass through". That doesn't sound very convincing. Also note that I'm asking about violence caused by custom checks, so the murder of Lyra McKee is hardly relevant here.
– michau
38 secs ago
add a comment |
New here, but there's a misconception in your question. The worry over the border isn't about some trade disputes and companies turning ugly over tariffs; this is about the establishment of any border at all between 2 regions of Ireland.
I definitely can't go into all the details but here's a reference to the Wikipedia on The Troubles which is central to this conversation. From there, some simple Google foo will let you find more information on the violence that was happening within a generation ago over this very border. The Good Friday Agreement is a good place to start as well, although there is debate over whether that prevents trade checkpoints or ALL checkpoints. See other questions on this very site.
And as for evidence of violence well.... This happened just a few days ago
New contributor
I know about The Troubles, but the checkpoints in that period were very different from custom posts that e.g. Norway has. Your argument seems to be: "Military posts provoked violence, therefore violence will be also provoked by hardly noticeable customs posts that let the great majority of private traffic pass through". That doesn't sound very convincing. Also note that I'm asking about violence caused by custom checks, so the murder of Lyra McKee is hardly relevant here.
– michau
38 secs ago
add a comment |
New here, but there's a misconception in your question. The worry over the border isn't about some trade disputes and companies turning ugly over tariffs; this is about the establishment of any border at all between 2 regions of Ireland.
I definitely can't go into all the details but here's a reference to the Wikipedia on The Troubles which is central to this conversation. From there, some simple Google foo will let you find more information on the violence that was happening within a generation ago over this very border. The Good Friday Agreement is a good place to start as well, although there is debate over whether that prevents trade checkpoints or ALL checkpoints. See other questions on this very site.
And as for evidence of violence well.... This happened just a few days ago
New contributor
New here, but there's a misconception in your question. The worry over the border isn't about some trade disputes and companies turning ugly over tariffs; this is about the establishment of any border at all between 2 regions of Ireland.
I definitely can't go into all the details but here's a reference to the Wikipedia on The Troubles which is central to this conversation. From there, some simple Google foo will let you find more information on the violence that was happening within a generation ago over this very border. The Good Friday Agreement is a good place to start as well, although there is debate over whether that prevents trade checkpoints or ALL checkpoints. See other questions on this very site.
And as for evidence of violence well.... This happened just a few days ago
New contributor
New contributor
answered 9 hours ago
Red MageRed Mage
2812
2812
New contributor
New contributor
I know about The Troubles, but the checkpoints in that period were very different from custom posts that e.g. Norway has. Your argument seems to be: "Military posts provoked violence, therefore violence will be also provoked by hardly noticeable customs posts that let the great majority of private traffic pass through". That doesn't sound very convincing. Also note that I'm asking about violence caused by custom checks, so the murder of Lyra McKee is hardly relevant here.
– michau
38 secs ago
add a comment |
I know about The Troubles, but the checkpoints in that period were very different from custom posts that e.g. Norway has. Your argument seems to be: "Military posts provoked violence, therefore violence will be also provoked by hardly noticeable customs posts that let the great majority of private traffic pass through". That doesn't sound very convincing. Also note that I'm asking about violence caused by custom checks, so the murder of Lyra McKee is hardly relevant here.
– michau
38 secs ago
I know about The Troubles, but the checkpoints in that period were very different from custom posts that e.g. Norway has. Your argument seems to be: "Military posts provoked violence, therefore violence will be also provoked by hardly noticeable customs posts that let the great majority of private traffic pass through". That doesn't sound very convincing. Also note that I'm asking about violence caused by custom checks, so the murder of Lyra McKee is hardly relevant here.
– michau
38 secs ago
I know about The Troubles, but the checkpoints in that period were very different from custom posts that e.g. Norway has. Your argument seems to be: "Military posts provoked violence, therefore violence will be also provoked by hardly noticeable customs posts that let the great majority of private traffic pass through". That doesn't sound very convincing. Also note that I'm asking about violence caused by custom checks, so the murder of Lyra McKee is hardly relevant here.
– michau
38 secs ago
add a comment |
To expand on Red Mage's answer, Wikipedia has a timeline of the Northern Ireland Troubles and peace process. To better understand it, it's good to note that the Good Friday Agreement was effective from December 1999.
Since the Wikipedia list is chronological, a good way to visualise the violence is to use the search option in your browser (which adds little yellow stripes in the scrollbar where the search term occurs).
For example, when we search for the word 'shot', we see many more instances before the turn of the millennium than after it. Other frequent terms include 'bomb', 'explosive', 'killed' and 'wound'. Notice that each of these terms are unlikely to be associated with other EU borders, it's not something you'd expect on the peaceful continent of Europe.
Another good way to read into the situation is to follow up on Wikipedia's references. The link to more extensive news articles which add a lot of context. It should also be noted that the list seems properly maintained. For example, the shooting of the journalist around the 2019 Easter weekend is not yet listed on that page because it's not yet confirmed to be related to the Troubles (though as explained in Red Mage's link, the police says the 'New IRA' is likely to be behind it).
I'm asking about evidence that adding customs posts would result in increased violence (in particular, even when performing just lightweight custom checks that let the great majority of private traffic pass through). I can't see anything in your answer specifically related to this topic. The Wikipedia page you've linked to doesn't even contain the word "customs".
– michau
39 mins ago
add a comment |
To expand on Red Mage's answer, Wikipedia has a timeline of the Northern Ireland Troubles and peace process. To better understand it, it's good to note that the Good Friday Agreement was effective from December 1999.
Since the Wikipedia list is chronological, a good way to visualise the violence is to use the search option in your browser (which adds little yellow stripes in the scrollbar where the search term occurs).
For example, when we search for the word 'shot', we see many more instances before the turn of the millennium than after it. Other frequent terms include 'bomb', 'explosive', 'killed' and 'wound'. Notice that each of these terms are unlikely to be associated with other EU borders, it's not something you'd expect on the peaceful continent of Europe.
Another good way to read into the situation is to follow up on Wikipedia's references. The link to more extensive news articles which add a lot of context. It should also be noted that the list seems properly maintained. For example, the shooting of the journalist around the 2019 Easter weekend is not yet listed on that page because it's not yet confirmed to be related to the Troubles (though as explained in Red Mage's link, the police says the 'New IRA' is likely to be behind it).
I'm asking about evidence that adding customs posts would result in increased violence (in particular, even when performing just lightweight custom checks that let the great majority of private traffic pass through). I can't see anything in your answer specifically related to this topic. The Wikipedia page you've linked to doesn't even contain the word "customs".
– michau
39 mins ago
add a comment |
To expand on Red Mage's answer, Wikipedia has a timeline of the Northern Ireland Troubles and peace process. To better understand it, it's good to note that the Good Friday Agreement was effective from December 1999.
Since the Wikipedia list is chronological, a good way to visualise the violence is to use the search option in your browser (which adds little yellow stripes in the scrollbar where the search term occurs).
For example, when we search for the word 'shot', we see many more instances before the turn of the millennium than after it. Other frequent terms include 'bomb', 'explosive', 'killed' and 'wound'. Notice that each of these terms are unlikely to be associated with other EU borders, it's not something you'd expect on the peaceful continent of Europe.
Another good way to read into the situation is to follow up on Wikipedia's references. The link to more extensive news articles which add a lot of context. It should also be noted that the list seems properly maintained. For example, the shooting of the journalist around the 2019 Easter weekend is not yet listed on that page because it's not yet confirmed to be related to the Troubles (though as explained in Red Mage's link, the police says the 'New IRA' is likely to be behind it).
To expand on Red Mage's answer, Wikipedia has a timeline of the Northern Ireland Troubles and peace process. To better understand it, it's good to note that the Good Friday Agreement was effective from December 1999.
Since the Wikipedia list is chronological, a good way to visualise the violence is to use the search option in your browser (which adds little yellow stripes in the scrollbar where the search term occurs).
For example, when we search for the word 'shot', we see many more instances before the turn of the millennium than after it. Other frequent terms include 'bomb', 'explosive', 'killed' and 'wound'. Notice that each of these terms are unlikely to be associated with other EU borders, it's not something you'd expect on the peaceful continent of Europe.
Another good way to read into the situation is to follow up on Wikipedia's references. The link to more extensive news articles which add a lot of context. It should also be noted that the list seems properly maintained. For example, the shooting of the journalist around the 2019 Easter weekend is not yet listed on that page because it's not yet confirmed to be related to the Troubles (though as explained in Red Mage's link, the police says the 'New IRA' is likely to be behind it).
answered 4 hours ago
JJJJJJ
7,53922762
7,53922762
I'm asking about evidence that adding customs posts would result in increased violence (in particular, even when performing just lightweight custom checks that let the great majority of private traffic pass through). I can't see anything in your answer specifically related to this topic. The Wikipedia page you've linked to doesn't even contain the word "customs".
– michau
39 mins ago
add a comment |
I'm asking about evidence that adding customs posts would result in increased violence (in particular, even when performing just lightweight custom checks that let the great majority of private traffic pass through). I can't see anything in your answer specifically related to this topic. The Wikipedia page you've linked to doesn't even contain the word "customs".
– michau
39 mins ago
I'm asking about evidence that adding customs posts would result in increased violence (in particular, even when performing just lightweight custom checks that let the great majority of private traffic pass through). I can't see anything in your answer specifically related to this topic. The Wikipedia page you've linked to doesn't even contain the word "customs".
– michau
39 mins ago
I'm asking about evidence that adding customs posts would result in increased violence (in particular, even when performing just lightweight custom checks that let the great majority of private traffic pass through). I can't see anything in your answer specifically related to this topic. The Wikipedia page you've linked to doesn't even contain the word "customs".
– michau
39 mins ago
add a comment |
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4
And if you were a guy who thought that a part of Sweden belonged to Norway, and so that you should be able to travel to that part without having your id checked, how would you react if some did check it? (Assume you had guns and bombs at your disposal too.) Like this maybe: bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-14320577/…
– Fizz
9 hours ago
Or like this?
– Fizz
9 hours ago
You might be interested: politics.stackexchange.com/questions/34511/…
– Allure
2 hours ago
@Fizz A lot of cars are stopped and checked by British traffic police in Northern Ireland every day, and it hasn't led to particularly high violence in the last 20 years. What is so different about cars being stopped by British customs officers? Both situations show British dominance over Northern Ireland and are probably equally unacceptable and offensive to radical Irish Republicans.
– michau
54 mins ago
1
@michau huge efforts have been expended to make the NI police force acceptable to republicans, including renaming it, creating an oversight board, and taking steps to increase non-unionist membership of the force. Perhaps having a separate customs force for Northern Ireland with similar governance would make it more palatable, but the police force does not call attention to the existence of the border, while customs enforcement would. Symbolism is important.
– phoog
35 mins ago