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Why increasing of the temperature of the objects like wood, paper etc. doesn't fire them?


How does a maple syrup evaporator work?Unmixing of gases: What is the relevant temperature for my Entropy?Heat Temperature and my dinnerInternal energy, Enthalpy, and HeatFirst Law of Thermodynamics and SignsWhy does oil stop smoking while heat is being added?What is the entropy change when dropping hot metal into cold water?Does entropy increase with a decrease or with an increase in a system’s temperature?If two objects of different temperatures have the same heat source applied, do they heat up by the same amount?Experiments measuring temperature dependence of graphene's specific heat in low-temperature regime?













4












$begingroup$


I have a question which is quite easy to state but hard to understand.



Question



Imagine, we have paper book. If we put this into a pan and increase it's temperature, this book would not catch fire.



If, on the other hand, the book interacts with this heat source directly, it does catch fire.




What is the difference between this two situations?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$







  • 3




    $begingroup$
    "If we put this into a pan and increase it's temperature, this book would not flame" - Are you sure?
    $endgroup$
    – alephzero
    2 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Fahrenheit 451......slate.com/technology/2012/06/…
    $endgroup$
    – StudyStudy
    2 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Is the book sitting completely flat in the pan, or can air circulate under it?
    $endgroup$
    – PM 2Ring
    2 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    The book in the pan will catch fire if the pan gets hot enough. The pan starts out at room temperature; the flame is immediately very hot.
    $endgroup$
    – G. Smith
    2 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    OK, I’ve written an answer which I hope answers your question.
    $endgroup$
    – G. Smith
    1 hour ago















4












$begingroup$


I have a question which is quite easy to state but hard to understand.



Question



Imagine, we have paper book. If we put this into a pan and increase it's temperature, this book would not catch fire.



If, on the other hand, the book interacts with this heat source directly, it does catch fire.




What is the difference between this two situations?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$







  • 3




    $begingroup$
    "If we put this into a pan and increase it's temperature, this book would not flame" - Are you sure?
    $endgroup$
    – alephzero
    2 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Fahrenheit 451......slate.com/technology/2012/06/…
    $endgroup$
    – StudyStudy
    2 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Is the book sitting completely flat in the pan, or can air circulate under it?
    $endgroup$
    – PM 2Ring
    2 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    The book in the pan will catch fire if the pan gets hot enough. The pan starts out at room temperature; the flame is immediately very hot.
    $endgroup$
    – G. Smith
    2 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    OK, I’ve written an answer which I hope answers your question.
    $endgroup$
    – G. Smith
    1 hour ago













4












4








4





$begingroup$


I have a question which is quite easy to state but hard to understand.



Question



Imagine, we have paper book. If we put this into a pan and increase it's temperature, this book would not catch fire.



If, on the other hand, the book interacts with this heat source directly, it does catch fire.




What is the difference between this two situations?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$




I have a question which is quite easy to state but hard to understand.



Question



Imagine, we have paper book. If we put this into a pan and increase it's temperature, this book would not catch fire.



If, on the other hand, the book interacts with this heat source directly, it does catch fire.




What is the difference between this two situations?







thermodynamics experimental-physics






share|cite|improve this question















share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited 2 hours ago









By Symmetry

4,73521328




4,73521328










asked 2 hours ago









Muhammed Ç. TUFANMuhammed Ç. TUFAN

283




283







  • 3




    $begingroup$
    "If we put this into a pan and increase it's temperature, this book would not flame" - Are you sure?
    $endgroup$
    – alephzero
    2 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Fahrenheit 451......slate.com/technology/2012/06/…
    $endgroup$
    – StudyStudy
    2 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Is the book sitting completely flat in the pan, or can air circulate under it?
    $endgroup$
    – PM 2Ring
    2 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    The book in the pan will catch fire if the pan gets hot enough. The pan starts out at room temperature; the flame is immediately very hot.
    $endgroup$
    – G. Smith
    2 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    OK, I’ve written an answer which I hope answers your question.
    $endgroup$
    – G. Smith
    1 hour ago












  • 3




    $begingroup$
    "If we put this into a pan and increase it's temperature, this book would not flame" - Are you sure?
    $endgroup$
    – alephzero
    2 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Fahrenheit 451......slate.com/technology/2012/06/…
    $endgroup$
    – StudyStudy
    2 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Is the book sitting completely flat in the pan, or can air circulate under it?
    $endgroup$
    – PM 2Ring
    2 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    The book in the pan will catch fire if the pan gets hot enough. The pan starts out at room temperature; the flame is immediately very hot.
    $endgroup$
    – G. Smith
    2 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    OK, I’ve written an answer which I hope answers your question.
    $endgroup$
    – G. Smith
    1 hour ago







3




3




$begingroup$
"If we put this into a pan and increase it's temperature, this book would not flame" - Are you sure?
$endgroup$
– alephzero
2 hours ago




$begingroup$
"If we put this into a pan and increase it's temperature, this book would not flame" - Are you sure?
$endgroup$
– alephzero
2 hours ago




2




2




$begingroup$
Fahrenheit 451......slate.com/technology/2012/06/…
$endgroup$
– StudyStudy
2 hours ago




$begingroup$
Fahrenheit 451......slate.com/technology/2012/06/…
$endgroup$
– StudyStudy
2 hours ago




1




1




$begingroup$
Is the book sitting completely flat in the pan, or can air circulate under it?
$endgroup$
– PM 2Ring
2 hours ago




$begingroup$
Is the book sitting completely flat in the pan, or can air circulate under it?
$endgroup$
– PM 2Ring
2 hours ago




1




1




$begingroup$
The book in the pan will catch fire if the pan gets hot enough. The pan starts out at room temperature; the flame is immediately very hot.
$endgroup$
– G. Smith
2 hours ago




$begingroup$
The book in the pan will catch fire if the pan gets hot enough. The pan starts out at room temperature; the flame is immediately very hot.
$endgroup$
– G. Smith
2 hours ago




1




1




$begingroup$
OK, I’ve written an answer which I hope answers your question.
$endgroup$
– G. Smith
1 hour ago




$begingroup$
OK, I’ve written an answer which I hope answers your question.
$endgroup$
– G. Smith
1 hour ago










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















4












$begingroup$

The pan starts out at room temperature, say 20°C. The gas flame starts out around 2000°C. The ignition temperature of paper is roughly 200°C.



So the flame can immediately ignite the paper, but the pan cannot immediately do so because it must heat up. The pan can ignite the paper if the flame can heat up the pan and the paper to the ignition temperature. However, depending on the pan, it is possible that the pan might not heat up to the paper ignition temperature if it loses heat quickly enough to the surrounding air.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Thanks! Have a good day @G.Smith!
    $endgroup$
    – Muhammed Ç. TUFAN
    1 hour ago


















1












$begingroup$

Before answering your question, it is important to understand how ignition of a solid material occurs. Ignition is a gas phase process. It is not the solid itself that ignites. Before a solid material can be ignited, it must be partially converted into a volatile (combustible) gas. This generally requires heat. It is the combustible gases at the surface of the solid that actually ignites, not the solid itself. The process of decomposing a solid to generate combustible gas is called pyrolysis. The ignitable gaseous products of pyrolysis need to be mixed with oxygen (air) in the proper ratio in order to be in what is called the flammable range.



Ignition of the gas/air mixture produced by heating the paper can occur in two ways. If you continue to increase the temperature of the mixture it may reach what is called its auto (self) ignition temperature and ignite. This would be the mechanism for the book on a heated pan. Alternatively, exposing it to a pilot ignition source, such as an external flame or arc, can also ignite the mixture. That would be your book surrounded by air and exposed to a flame. The temperature of the mixture at which this occurs is called the piloted ignition temperature, or flash ignition temperature. Generally speaking, the piloted (flash) ignition temperature is less than the auto (self) ignition temperature.



Returning to paper and your book, @StudyStudy mentioned Fahrenheit 451. That (233 C) happens to be the auto (self) ignition temperature of paper, made popular by the book of the same name. The original test used to determining that temperature comes from ASTM 1929 “Standard Test Method for Determining Ignition Temperatures of Plastics”, though the test is not restricted to plastics. The piloted (flash) ignition temperature using the ASTM test is about 177 C, which is less than the auto ignition temperature.



Now let’s consider your book on a pan. Since there is no flame or arc above the pan, any ignition that would occur would be auto (self) ignition. All other things considered, as noted above, auto ignition occurs at higher temperatures than ignition involving a pilot source (flame or arc). What’s more, heating occurs on the bottom surface of book. Much of this heat is conducted away from the heated surface into the mass of the book by heat conduction as well as to the surrounding air by convection. Most of the gaseous products of pyrolysis that may be produced at the bottom are prevented from mixing with air, which is essential for ignition. The surrounding air above the pan dilutes those gaseous products that escape the bottom surface. What you are likely to get is a book with a charred bottom but no flaming ignition.



If the book is surrounded by air subjected to an external flame, the much higher flame temperature can quickly both cause pyrolysis (thermal decomposition) and ignition of the resulting vapors.



Hope this helps.






share|cite|improve this answer









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    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes








    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    4












    $begingroup$

    The pan starts out at room temperature, say 20°C. The gas flame starts out around 2000°C. The ignition temperature of paper is roughly 200°C.



    So the flame can immediately ignite the paper, but the pan cannot immediately do so because it must heat up. The pan can ignite the paper if the flame can heat up the pan and the paper to the ignition temperature. However, depending on the pan, it is possible that the pan might not heat up to the paper ignition temperature if it loses heat quickly enough to the surrounding air.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$












    • $begingroup$
      Thanks! Have a good day @G.Smith!
      $endgroup$
      – Muhammed Ç. TUFAN
      1 hour ago















    4












    $begingroup$

    The pan starts out at room temperature, say 20°C. The gas flame starts out around 2000°C. The ignition temperature of paper is roughly 200°C.



    So the flame can immediately ignite the paper, but the pan cannot immediately do so because it must heat up. The pan can ignite the paper if the flame can heat up the pan and the paper to the ignition temperature. However, depending on the pan, it is possible that the pan might not heat up to the paper ignition temperature if it loses heat quickly enough to the surrounding air.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$












    • $begingroup$
      Thanks! Have a good day @G.Smith!
      $endgroup$
      – Muhammed Ç. TUFAN
      1 hour ago













    4












    4








    4





    $begingroup$

    The pan starts out at room temperature, say 20°C. The gas flame starts out around 2000°C. The ignition temperature of paper is roughly 200°C.



    So the flame can immediately ignite the paper, but the pan cannot immediately do so because it must heat up. The pan can ignite the paper if the flame can heat up the pan and the paper to the ignition temperature. However, depending on the pan, it is possible that the pan might not heat up to the paper ignition temperature if it loses heat quickly enough to the surrounding air.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$



    The pan starts out at room temperature, say 20°C. The gas flame starts out around 2000°C. The ignition temperature of paper is roughly 200°C.



    So the flame can immediately ignite the paper, but the pan cannot immediately do so because it must heat up. The pan can ignite the paper if the flame can heat up the pan and the paper to the ignition temperature. However, depending on the pan, it is possible that the pan might not heat up to the paper ignition temperature if it loses heat quickly enough to the surrounding air.







    share|cite|improve this answer














    share|cite|improve this answer



    share|cite|improve this answer








    edited 1 hour ago









    Eagle

    4111418




    4111418










    answered 1 hour ago









    G. SmithG. Smith

    11.7k11837




    11.7k11837











    • $begingroup$
      Thanks! Have a good day @G.Smith!
      $endgroup$
      – Muhammed Ç. TUFAN
      1 hour ago
















    • $begingroup$
      Thanks! Have a good day @G.Smith!
      $endgroup$
      – Muhammed Ç. TUFAN
      1 hour ago















    $begingroup$
    Thanks! Have a good day @G.Smith!
    $endgroup$
    – Muhammed Ç. TUFAN
    1 hour ago




    $begingroup$
    Thanks! Have a good day @G.Smith!
    $endgroup$
    – Muhammed Ç. TUFAN
    1 hour ago











    1












    $begingroup$

    Before answering your question, it is important to understand how ignition of a solid material occurs. Ignition is a gas phase process. It is not the solid itself that ignites. Before a solid material can be ignited, it must be partially converted into a volatile (combustible) gas. This generally requires heat. It is the combustible gases at the surface of the solid that actually ignites, not the solid itself. The process of decomposing a solid to generate combustible gas is called pyrolysis. The ignitable gaseous products of pyrolysis need to be mixed with oxygen (air) in the proper ratio in order to be in what is called the flammable range.



    Ignition of the gas/air mixture produced by heating the paper can occur in two ways. If you continue to increase the temperature of the mixture it may reach what is called its auto (self) ignition temperature and ignite. This would be the mechanism for the book on a heated pan. Alternatively, exposing it to a pilot ignition source, such as an external flame or arc, can also ignite the mixture. That would be your book surrounded by air and exposed to a flame. The temperature of the mixture at which this occurs is called the piloted ignition temperature, or flash ignition temperature. Generally speaking, the piloted (flash) ignition temperature is less than the auto (self) ignition temperature.



    Returning to paper and your book, @StudyStudy mentioned Fahrenheit 451. That (233 C) happens to be the auto (self) ignition temperature of paper, made popular by the book of the same name. The original test used to determining that temperature comes from ASTM 1929 “Standard Test Method for Determining Ignition Temperatures of Plastics”, though the test is not restricted to plastics. The piloted (flash) ignition temperature using the ASTM test is about 177 C, which is less than the auto ignition temperature.



    Now let’s consider your book on a pan. Since there is no flame or arc above the pan, any ignition that would occur would be auto (self) ignition. All other things considered, as noted above, auto ignition occurs at higher temperatures than ignition involving a pilot source (flame or arc). What’s more, heating occurs on the bottom surface of book. Much of this heat is conducted away from the heated surface into the mass of the book by heat conduction as well as to the surrounding air by convection. Most of the gaseous products of pyrolysis that may be produced at the bottom are prevented from mixing with air, which is essential for ignition. The surrounding air above the pan dilutes those gaseous products that escape the bottom surface. What you are likely to get is a book with a charred bottom but no flaming ignition.



    If the book is surrounded by air subjected to an external flame, the much higher flame temperature can quickly both cause pyrolysis (thermal decomposition) and ignition of the resulting vapors.



    Hope this helps.






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$

















      1












      $begingroup$

      Before answering your question, it is important to understand how ignition of a solid material occurs. Ignition is a gas phase process. It is not the solid itself that ignites. Before a solid material can be ignited, it must be partially converted into a volatile (combustible) gas. This generally requires heat. It is the combustible gases at the surface of the solid that actually ignites, not the solid itself. The process of decomposing a solid to generate combustible gas is called pyrolysis. The ignitable gaseous products of pyrolysis need to be mixed with oxygen (air) in the proper ratio in order to be in what is called the flammable range.



      Ignition of the gas/air mixture produced by heating the paper can occur in two ways. If you continue to increase the temperature of the mixture it may reach what is called its auto (self) ignition temperature and ignite. This would be the mechanism for the book on a heated pan. Alternatively, exposing it to a pilot ignition source, such as an external flame or arc, can also ignite the mixture. That would be your book surrounded by air and exposed to a flame. The temperature of the mixture at which this occurs is called the piloted ignition temperature, or flash ignition temperature. Generally speaking, the piloted (flash) ignition temperature is less than the auto (self) ignition temperature.



      Returning to paper and your book, @StudyStudy mentioned Fahrenheit 451. That (233 C) happens to be the auto (self) ignition temperature of paper, made popular by the book of the same name. The original test used to determining that temperature comes from ASTM 1929 “Standard Test Method for Determining Ignition Temperatures of Plastics”, though the test is not restricted to plastics. The piloted (flash) ignition temperature using the ASTM test is about 177 C, which is less than the auto ignition temperature.



      Now let’s consider your book on a pan. Since there is no flame or arc above the pan, any ignition that would occur would be auto (self) ignition. All other things considered, as noted above, auto ignition occurs at higher temperatures than ignition involving a pilot source (flame or arc). What’s more, heating occurs on the bottom surface of book. Much of this heat is conducted away from the heated surface into the mass of the book by heat conduction as well as to the surrounding air by convection. Most of the gaseous products of pyrolysis that may be produced at the bottom are prevented from mixing with air, which is essential for ignition. The surrounding air above the pan dilutes those gaseous products that escape the bottom surface. What you are likely to get is a book with a charred bottom but no flaming ignition.



      If the book is surrounded by air subjected to an external flame, the much higher flame temperature can quickly both cause pyrolysis (thermal decomposition) and ignition of the resulting vapors.



      Hope this helps.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$















        1












        1








        1





        $begingroup$

        Before answering your question, it is important to understand how ignition of a solid material occurs. Ignition is a gas phase process. It is not the solid itself that ignites. Before a solid material can be ignited, it must be partially converted into a volatile (combustible) gas. This generally requires heat. It is the combustible gases at the surface of the solid that actually ignites, not the solid itself. The process of decomposing a solid to generate combustible gas is called pyrolysis. The ignitable gaseous products of pyrolysis need to be mixed with oxygen (air) in the proper ratio in order to be in what is called the flammable range.



        Ignition of the gas/air mixture produced by heating the paper can occur in two ways. If you continue to increase the temperature of the mixture it may reach what is called its auto (self) ignition temperature and ignite. This would be the mechanism for the book on a heated pan. Alternatively, exposing it to a pilot ignition source, such as an external flame or arc, can also ignite the mixture. That would be your book surrounded by air and exposed to a flame. The temperature of the mixture at which this occurs is called the piloted ignition temperature, or flash ignition temperature. Generally speaking, the piloted (flash) ignition temperature is less than the auto (self) ignition temperature.



        Returning to paper and your book, @StudyStudy mentioned Fahrenheit 451. That (233 C) happens to be the auto (self) ignition temperature of paper, made popular by the book of the same name. The original test used to determining that temperature comes from ASTM 1929 “Standard Test Method for Determining Ignition Temperatures of Plastics”, though the test is not restricted to plastics. The piloted (flash) ignition temperature using the ASTM test is about 177 C, which is less than the auto ignition temperature.



        Now let’s consider your book on a pan. Since there is no flame or arc above the pan, any ignition that would occur would be auto (self) ignition. All other things considered, as noted above, auto ignition occurs at higher temperatures than ignition involving a pilot source (flame or arc). What’s more, heating occurs on the bottom surface of book. Much of this heat is conducted away from the heated surface into the mass of the book by heat conduction as well as to the surrounding air by convection. Most of the gaseous products of pyrolysis that may be produced at the bottom are prevented from mixing with air, which is essential for ignition. The surrounding air above the pan dilutes those gaseous products that escape the bottom surface. What you are likely to get is a book with a charred bottom but no flaming ignition.



        If the book is surrounded by air subjected to an external flame, the much higher flame temperature can quickly both cause pyrolysis (thermal decomposition) and ignition of the resulting vapors.



        Hope this helps.






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$



        Before answering your question, it is important to understand how ignition of a solid material occurs. Ignition is a gas phase process. It is not the solid itself that ignites. Before a solid material can be ignited, it must be partially converted into a volatile (combustible) gas. This generally requires heat. It is the combustible gases at the surface of the solid that actually ignites, not the solid itself. The process of decomposing a solid to generate combustible gas is called pyrolysis. The ignitable gaseous products of pyrolysis need to be mixed with oxygen (air) in the proper ratio in order to be in what is called the flammable range.



        Ignition of the gas/air mixture produced by heating the paper can occur in two ways. If you continue to increase the temperature of the mixture it may reach what is called its auto (self) ignition temperature and ignite. This would be the mechanism for the book on a heated pan. Alternatively, exposing it to a pilot ignition source, such as an external flame or arc, can also ignite the mixture. That would be your book surrounded by air and exposed to a flame. The temperature of the mixture at which this occurs is called the piloted ignition temperature, or flash ignition temperature. Generally speaking, the piloted (flash) ignition temperature is less than the auto (self) ignition temperature.



        Returning to paper and your book, @StudyStudy mentioned Fahrenheit 451. That (233 C) happens to be the auto (self) ignition temperature of paper, made popular by the book of the same name. The original test used to determining that temperature comes from ASTM 1929 “Standard Test Method for Determining Ignition Temperatures of Plastics”, though the test is not restricted to plastics. The piloted (flash) ignition temperature using the ASTM test is about 177 C, which is less than the auto ignition temperature.



        Now let’s consider your book on a pan. Since there is no flame or arc above the pan, any ignition that would occur would be auto (self) ignition. All other things considered, as noted above, auto ignition occurs at higher temperatures than ignition involving a pilot source (flame or arc). What’s more, heating occurs on the bottom surface of book. Much of this heat is conducted away from the heated surface into the mass of the book by heat conduction as well as to the surrounding air by convection. Most of the gaseous products of pyrolysis that may be produced at the bottom are prevented from mixing with air, which is essential for ignition. The surrounding air above the pan dilutes those gaseous products that escape the bottom surface. What you are likely to get is a book with a charred bottom but no flaming ignition.



        If the book is surrounded by air subjected to an external flame, the much higher flame temperature can quickly both cause pyrolysis (thermal decomposition) and ignition of the resulting vapors.



        Hope this helps.







        share|cite|improve this answer












        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer










        answered 56 mins ago









        Bob DBob D

        5,3472420




        5,3472420



























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