Why would you put your input amplifier in front of your filtering for an ECG signal?Noise reduction in physiological measurements (EEG/ECG)Wireless EEG electrode designIs there an advantage to process EEG data as analog (vs digitized) signals?Emulate the effect of a lock-in amplifier on a signal with a programming scriptSwitching input to instrumental amplifier with an analog mux (ECG, EEG)ECG signal amplificationSignal conditioning for piezo shock-sensor digital inputMaximum Allowable Noise of ADC Input SignalAnalog circuit for moving-mean/moving-averageWhy is superheterodyning better than direct conversion?

How can sister protect herself from impulse purchases with a credit card?

Appropriate liquid/solvent for life in my underground environment on Venus

Pedaling at different gear ratios on flat terrain: what's the point?

How to get all possible paths in 0/1 matrix better way?

Why are there five extra turns in tournament Magic?

What would be the game balance implications for using the Gygax method for applying falling damage?

French equivalent of the German expression "flöten gehen"

What's is the easiest way to purchase a stock and hold it

Does the US Supreme Court vote using secret ballots?

Physically unpleasant work environment

What animals or plants were used to illustrate ideas of physics?

Why would company (decision makers) wait for someone to retire, rather than lay them off, when their role is no longer needed?

Is my homebrew Awakened Bear race balanced?

How was the blinking terminal cursor invented?

Is it possible to determine from only a photo of a cityscape whether it was taken close with wide angle or from a distance with zoom?

FIFO data structure in pure C

Can more than one instance of Bend Luck be applied to the same roll by multiple Wild Magic sorcerers?

Can an airline pilot be prosecuted for killing an unruly passenger who could not be physically restrained?

Should I twist DC power and ground wires from a power supply?

Taylor series leads to two different functions - why?

Can ThermodynamicData be used with NSolve?

Why wear sunglasses in indoor velodromes?

Have the writers and actors of GOT responded to its poor reception?

How to customize the pie chart background in PowerPoint?



Why would you put your input amplifier in front of your filtering for an ECG signal?


Noise reduction in physiological measurements (EEG/ECG)Wireless EEG electrode designIs there an advantage to process EEG data as analog (vs digitized) signals?Emulate the effect of a lock-in amplifier on a signal with a programming scriptSwitching input to instrumental amplifier with an analog mux (ECG, EEG)ECG signal amplificationSignal conditioning for piezo shock-sensor digital inputMaximum Allowable Noise of ADC Input SignalAnalog circuit for moving-mean/moving-averageWhy is superheterodyning better than direct conversion?






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;








14












$begingroup$


In this article at eetimes.com they show the signal chain for measuring an ECG.



enter image description here



The raw signal of an ECG contains noise and offsets at least a magnitude larger than the real signal. (Some few mV ECG, several tens of mV from power line noise and electrode offset and up to several hundred mV baseline wander due movement of the breast.)



This would intuitively make me do the filtering of the signal in front of the amplifiers, to avoid amplification of the unwanted signal components. In this article however they do the signal filtering after the input amplifier, the high frequency noise removal even after the second amplifier.



I can not really think of a reason why they would do this. The only thing coming to mind is the very high impedance of the signal source, but the filtering would not affect the signal source, because that frequency range would obviously be in the passband.



Am I missing some important reason why you would do the signal conditioning in this order?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$











  • $begingroup$
    That's a pretty good article.
    $endgroup$
    – Scott Seidman
    12 hours ago

















14












$begingroup$


In this article at eetimes.com they show the signal chain for measuring an ECG.



enter image description here



The raw signal of an ECG contains noise and offsets at least a magnitude larger than the real signal. (Some few mV ECG, several tens of mV from power line noise and electrode offset and up to several hundred mV baseline wander due movement of the breast.)



This would intuitively make me do the filtering of the signal in front of the amplifiers, to avoid amplification of the unwanted signal components. In this article however they do the signal filtering after the input amplifier, the high frequency noise removal even after the second amplifier.



I can not really think of a reason why they would do this. The only thing coming to mind is the very high impedance of the signal source, but the filtering would not affect the signal source, because that frequency range would obviously be in the passband.



Am I missing some important reason why you would do the signal conditioning in this order?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$











  • $begingroup$
    That's a pretty good article.
    $endgroup$
    – Scott Seidman
    12 hours ago













14












14








14


4



$begingroup$


In this article at eetimes.com they show the signal chain for measuring an ECG.



enter image description here



The raw signal of an ECG contains noise and offsets at least a magnitude larger than the real signal. (Some few mV ECG, several tens of mV from power line noise and electrode offset and up to several hundred mV baseline wander due movement of the breast.)



This would intuitively make me do the filtering of the signal in front of the amplifiers, to avoid amplification of the unwanted signal components. In this article however they do the signal filtering after the input amplifier, the high frequency noise removal even after the second amplifier.



I can not really think of a reason why they would do this. The only thing coming to mind is the very high impedance of the signal source, but the filtering would not affect the signal source, because that frequency range would obviously be in the passband.



Am I missing some important reason why you would do the signal conditioning in this order?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$




In this article at eetimes.com they show the signal chain for measuring an ECG.



enter image description here



The raw signal of an ECG contains noise and offsets at least a magnitude larger than the real signal. (Some few mV ECG, several tens of mV from power line noise and electrode offset and up to several hundred mV baseline wander due movement of the breast.)



This would intuitively make me do the filtering of the signal in front of the amplifiers, to avoid amplification of the unwanted signal components. In this article however they do the signal filtering after the input amplifier, the high frequency noise removal even after the second amplifier.



I can not really think of a reason why they would do this. The only thing coming to mind is the very high impedance of the signal source, but the filtering would not affect the signal source, because that frequency range would obviously be in the passband.



Am I missing some important reason why you would do the signal conditioning in this order?







signal-processing biopotential ecg






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 6 hours ago









JRE

25.4k64585




25.4k64585










asked yesterday









jusacajusaca

1,141523




1,141523











  • $begingroup$
    That's a pretty good article.
    $endgroup$
    – Scott Seidman
    12 hours ago
















  • $begingroup$
    That's a pretty good article.
    $endgroup$
    – Scott Seidman
    12 hours ago















$begingroup$
That's a pretty good article.
$endgroup$
– Scott Seidman
12 hours ago




$begingroup$
That's a pretty good article.
$endgroup$
– Scott Seidman
12 hours ago










4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes


















24












$begingroup$


Am I missing some important reason why you would do the signal
conditioning in this order?




Yes you are...



The front-end differential amplifier will be chosen such that it has a common-mode rejection level of many tens of dB, quite possibly in the region of 80 dB.



This diff amp converts a differential signal into a single-ended signal and any common-mode interference will be largely ignored.



If you were to put filters on both legs of the diff amp, to avoid a balance mismatch you would have to choose components (such as capacitors and resistors) that were matched to at least an equivalent level of -80 dB.



You could regard 1% capacitors as having potentially a difference in value of 2% and that, in dB terms could be regarded as -20 log(50) = -34 dB. In other words, you would never get decent differential common-mode performance with filters on each leg before the diff-amplifier.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Could it be possible that the differential noise is great enough to warrant filtering before the amplifier despite a reduction in CMRR?
    $endgroup$
    – DavidG25
    yesterday






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Can happen, but would need a DM component much greater then a few hundred mV (100mV gives just half a volt at the output of that amplifier). Another reason to amplify early is that you make the rest of the systems noise FAR less of a problem by applying 14dB of gain in the front end. Now in practise, reality is messy and there will likely be filters before the diff amp, but they will typically be way outside the band of interest so that small tolerances have minimal effect. These exist to keep things like radio transmissions out of the electronics.
    $endgroup$
    – Dan Mills
    yesterday






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @DanMills: +1 for your last point, though that could be further extended by observing that a cap between the two inputs of the amplifier will supply some low-pass filtering without creating any differential noise, but wouldn't usually be viewed as a "filter" per say in a block diagram.
    $endgroup$
    – supercat
    yesterday






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @supercat Indeed, and you can take it a step further and split that cap into two in series, then place a SMALL valued one from the junction to chassis ground. The mismatch of the two larger series caps is attenuated because most of the CM voltage in the band of interest is dropped across the small cap to ground while at RF the big series caps are negligible impedances and the cap to ground shunts the RF current.
    $endgroup$
    – Dan Mills
    yesterday


















7












$begingroup$

The only filtering you ever do before the first amplifier is that related to shape of antenna/waveguide. And that only applies to microwave and higher frequencies.



Conventional passive filters add noise -- you want the signal to be as large compared to that added noise as possible. Even if it means you are also amplifying interfering signals, you aren't changing the ratio of signal to in-band interfering signals, so you can filter interference just as effectively after amplification as before. But you cannot amplify as effectively after filtering, because you're already mixed in the filter's noise.



Then you'll frequently amplify again after filtering, since now the full dynamic range can be applied to the frequencies of interest. But this is in addition to the pre-amplification, not instead.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$




















    7












    $begingroup$

    I'll second @Andy's answer, and I'd like to add one thing.



    enter image description here



    A passive low-pass filter between the electrodes and the InAmp is called for. I put the cutoff frequency somewhere in the kHz region. InAmps have a great CMRR at low frequencies, but the CMRR degrades at higher frequencies (above 3kHz-10kHz depending on the chip). The EKG signal is at low frequency, so the high frequency can be filtered out even with somewhat mismatched passive components.






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$








    • 1




      $begingroup$
      High frequencies don't need to be filtered as common mode, because they can be filtered by lowpass AFTER the amplifier. You don't want passives in front of the amplifier on any small signal system, and especially on an ECG you want all the measurement electrodes to be connected to "infinite" input impedance FET stages incapable of passing current through the body. The RL drive slowly equalizes your circuit ground and body ground, you do NOT want to form a circuit with current flowing out RL drive and into a measurement channel.
      $endgroup$
      – Ben Voigt
      yesterday






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      @Ben High frequency common mode should be filtered out before the InAmp. InAmps reject common mode at low frequencies well. Unfortunately, InAmps have problems with high frequency common mode (above 10kHz, although this varies from one model of InAmp to another). CMRR is frequency-dependent, and it goes down at higher frequencies. [Just to keep to the subject. I view this mainly as a signal quality issue: protecting InAmp against EMI. If we want to consider patient safety aspects, I'd be happy to do that too.]
      $endgroup$
      – Nick Alexeev
      23 hours ago











    • $begingroup$
      You don't need CMRR at frequencies higher than the signal band. If they pass through the in-amp, it doesn't matter, because the following bandpass filters them out. What you don't want are any noise sources ahead of the first amplifier.
      $endgroup$
      – Ben Voigt
      23 hours ago






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      @Ben In addition to reduced CMRR at high frequency, InAmps also suffer from rectification at high frequency. A high frequency signal may get rectified by InAmp's input stage and then appear as a DC offset at the output. More in this app note: Analog Devices MT-070. In-Amp Input RFI Protection.
      $endgroup$
      – Nick Alexeev
      22 hours ago



















    7












    $begingroup$

    Andy and Nick offered great answers. Let me try to beef them up just a little.



    First, the math says that amplifying then filtering is equivalent to filtering then amplifying. This, of course, applies to the ideal situation, so lets discuss the non-idealities.



    The BIG one here, IMO, is saturation. If the noise is so big that it saturates your amplifier, all bets are off. You lose signal. Does this bother us here?? Not really. We usually leave the gain of that InAmp stage low enough to deal with 100mV or so of DC electrode offset, so gain is modest and we're unlikely to saturate.



    Next concern involving non-idealities, as already mentioned, is Common Mode noise and CMRR. We want the CMRR in the pass band to be excellent. If we hurt the CMRR in the pass band, we decrease SNR.
    I'm not totally with Nick on the prefiltering in the kHz range, but I usually follow manufacturer guidelines for RF filtering, and maybe even go a decade in frequency below their recommendations. When I build these filters, I often use X2Y caps to try to keep the caps well-matched.



    Lastly, let's think about the signal path all the way to the signal in the body. The impedance of the electrode/skin interface will always vary, and every design needs to take that into account. Because of the tremendous input impedance of today's InAmps, this isn't quite as big a deal as it used to be. In fact, to meet NFPA99 hospital safety standards (when I know I have to bring a device through clinical engineering for inspection) I often put a big honking resistor on each electrode lead to guarantee compliance (<10 microamps)given a failure of Rail voltage at the amp inputs. I match those resistors well, but it probably doesn't make as much difference as I like to think it does, especially given mismatch at the electrode, so to some extent, we're kidding ourselves to make believe that just because we don't throw a filter in before the amp that the signal paths of all electrode leads are well matched -- they're just well matched enough. Variations here, however, can make nailing the cutoff frequency of a filter we choose to put here a bit iffy.



    Throw Driven-Leg into the mix, and you're probably about 20dB better. InAmps aren't what they were in John Webster's day. We have inexpensive units with impedances that he could only dream about.



    The way I approach such issues is to get my differential signal converted to single-ended as soon as I possibly can, treating as gingerly as I can get away with right up until the Instrumentation Amp with modest gain, and after that, I do whatever I want. With good part selection, you can really get microvolt-level noise with millivolt-level signals.



    As a last point, Nick's point about ESD protection is a good one. For my stuff, I don't particularly care, but have you ever wondered how clinical ECG units don't just pop when a patient is defibrillated? Thousands of volts presented to the inputs, and a well-designed unit just laughs and goes about it's business.






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$













      Your Answer






      StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function ()
      return StackExchange.using("schematics", function ()
      StackExchange.schematics.init();
      );
      , "cicuitlab");

      StackExchange.ready(function()
      var channelOptions =
      tags: "".split(" "),
      id: "135"
      ;
      initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

      StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
      // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
      if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
      StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
      createEditor();
      );

      else
      createEditor();

      );

      function createEditor()
      StackExchange.prepareEditor(
      heartbeatType: 'answer',
      autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
      convertImagesToLinks: false,
      noModals: true,
      showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
      reputationToPostImages: null,
      bindNavPrevention: true,
      postfix: "",
      imageUploader:
      brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
      contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
      allowUrls: true
      ,
      onDemand: true,
      discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
      ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
      );



      );













      draft saved

      draft discarded


















      StackExchange.ready(
      function ()
      StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2felectronics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f438620%2fwhy-would-you-put-your-input-amplifier-in-front-of-your-filtering-for-an-ecg-sig%23new-answer', 'question_page');

      );

      Post as a guest















      Required, but never shown

























      4 Answers
      4






      active

      oldest

      votes








      4 Answers
      4






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes









      24












      $begingroup$


      Am I missing some important reason why you would do the signal
      conditioning in this order?




      Yes you are...



      The front-end differential amplifier will be chosen such that it has a common-mode rejection level of many tens of dB, quite possibly in the region of 80 dB.



      This diff amp converts a differential signal into a single-ended signal and any common-mode interference will be largely ignored.



      If you were to put filters on both legs of the diff amp, to avoid a balance mismatch you would have to choose components (such as capacitors and resistors) that were matched to at least an equivalent level of -80 dB.



      You could regard 1% capacitors as having potentially a difference in value of 2% and that, in dB terms could be regarded as -20 log(50) = -34 dB. In other words, you would never get decent differential common-mode performance with filters on each leg before the diff-amplifier.






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$








      • 1




        $begingroup$
        Could it be possible that the differential noise is great enough to warrant filtering before the amplifier despite a reduction in CMRR?
        $endgroup$
        – DavidG25
        yesterday






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        Can happen, but would need a DM component much greater then a few hundred mV (100mV gives just half a volt at the output of that amplifier). Another reason to amplify early is that you make the rest of the systems noise FAR less of a problem by applying 14dB of gain in the front end. Now in practise, reality is messy and there will likely be filters before the diff amp, but they will typically be way outside the band of interest so that small tolerances have minimal effect. These exist to keep things like radio transmissions out of the electronics.
        $endgroup$
        – Dan Mills
        yesterday






      • 1




        $begingroup$
        @DanMills: +1 for your last point, though that could be further extended by observing that a cap between the two inputs of the amplifier will supply some low-pass filtering without creating any differential noise, but wouldn't usually be viewed as a "filter" per say in a block diagram.
        $endgroup$
        – supercat
        yesterday






      • 1




        $begingroup$
        @supercat Indeed, and you can take it a step further and split that cap into two in series, then place a SMALL valued one from the junction to chassis ground. The mismatch of the two larger series caps is attenuated because most of the CM voltage in the band of interest is dropped across the small cap to ground while at RF the big series caps are negligible impedances and the cap to ground shunts the RF current.
        $endgroup$
        – Dan Mills
        yesterday















      24












      $begingroup$


      Am I missing some important reason why you would do the signal
      conditioning in this order?




      Yes you are...



      The front-end differential amplifier will be chosen such that it has a common-mode rejection level of many tens of dB, quite possibly in the region of 80 dB.



      This diff amp converts a differential signal into a single-ended signal and any common-mode interference will be largely ignored.



      If you were to put filters on both legs of the diff amp, to avoid a balance mismatch you would have to choose components (such as capacitors and resistors) that were matched to at least an equivalent level of -80 dB.



      You could regard 1% capacitors as having potentially a difference in value of 2% and that, in dB terms could be regarded as -20 log(50) = -34 dB. In other words, you would never get decent differential common-mode performance with filters on each leg before the diff-amplifier.






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$








      • 1




        $begingroup$
        Could it be possible that the differential noise is great enough to warrant filtering before the amplifier despite a reduction in CMRR?
        $endgroup$
        – DavidG25
        yesterday






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        Can happen, but would need a DM component much greater then a few hundred mV (100mV gives just half a volt at the output of that amplifier). Another reason to amplify early is that you make the rest of the systems noise FAR less of a problem by applying 14dB of gain in the front end. Now in practise, reality is messy and there will likely be filters before the diff amp, but they will typically be way outside the band of interest so that small tolerances have minimal effect. These exist to keep things like radio transmissions out of the electronics.
        $endgroup$
        – Dan Mills
        yesterday






      • 1




        $begingroup$
        @DanMills: +1 for your last point, though that could be further extended by observing that a cap between the two inputs of the amplifier will supply some low-pass filtering without creating any differential noise, but wouldn't usually be viewed as a "filter" per say in a block diagram.
        $endgroup$
        – supercat
        yesterday






      • 1




        $begingroup$
        @supercat Indeed, and you can take it a step further and split that cap into two in series, then place a SMALL valued one from the junction to chassis ground. The mismatch of the two larger series caps is attenuated because most of the CM voltage in the band of interest is dropped across the small cap to ground while at RF the big series caps are negligible impedances and the cap to ground shunts the RF current.
        $endgroup$
        – Dan Mills
        yesterday













      24












      24








      24





      $begingroup$


      Am I missing some important reason why you would do the signal
      conditioning in this order?




      Yes you are...



      The front-end differential amplifier will be chosen such that it has a common-mode rejection level of many tens of dB, quite possibly in the region of 80 dB.



      This diff amp converts a differential signal into a single-ended signal and any common-mode interference will be largely ignored.



      If you were to put filters on both legs of the diff amp, to avoid a balance mismatch you would have to choose components (such as capacitors and resistors) that were matched to at least an equivalent level of -80 dB.



      You could regard 1% capacitors as having potentially a difference in value of 2% and that, in dB terms could be regarded as -20 log(50) = -34 dB. In other words, you would never get decent differential common-mode performance with filters on each leg before the diff-amplifier.






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$




      Am I missing some important reason why you would do the signal
      conditioning in this order?




      Yes you are...



      The front-end differential amplifier will be chosen such that it has a common-mode rejection level of many tens of dB, quite possibly in the region of 80 dB.



      This diff amp converts a differential signal into a single-ended signal and any common-mode interference will be largely ignored.



      If you were to put filters on both legs of the diff amp, to avoid a balance mismatch you would have to choose components (such as capacitors and resistors) that were matched to at least an equivalent level of -80 dB.



      You could regard 1% capacitors as having potentially a difference in value of 2% and that, in dB terms could be regarded as -20 log(50) = -34 dB. In other words, you would never get decent differential common-mode performance with filters on each leg before the diff-amplifier.







      share|improve this answer












      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer










      answered yesterday









      Andy akaAndy aka

      246k11188427




      246k11188427







      • 1




        $begingroup$
        Could it be possible that the differential noise is great enough to warrant filtering before the amplifier despite a reduction in CMRR?
        $endgroup$
        – DavidG25
        yesterday






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        Can happen, but would need a DM component much greater then a few hundred mV (100mV gives just half a volt at the output of that amplifier). Another reason to amplify early is that you make the rest of the systems noise FAR less of a problem by applying 14dB of gain in the front end. Now in practise, reality is messy and there will likely be filters before the diff amp, but they will typically be way outside the band of interest so that small tolerances have minimal effect. These exist to keep things like radio transmissions out of the electronics.
        $endgroup$
        – Dan Mills
        yesterday






      • 1




        $begingroup$
        @DanMills: +1 for your last point, though that could be further extended by observing that a cap between the two inputs of the amplifier will supply some low-pass filtering without creating any differential noise, but wouldn't usually be viewed as a "filter" per say in a block diagram.
        $endgroup$
        – supercat
        yesterday






      • 1




        $begingroup$
        @supercat Indeed, and you can take it a step further and split that cap into two in series, then place a SMALL valued one from the junction to chassis ground. The mismatch of the two larger series caps is attenuated because most of the CM voltage in the band of interest is dropped across the small cap to ground while at RF the big series caps are negligible impedances and the cap to ground shunts the RF current.
        $endgroup$
        – Dan Mills
        yesterday












      • 1




        $begingroup$
        Could it be possible that the differential noise is great enough to warrant filtering before the amplifier despite a reduction in CMRR?
        $endgroup$
        – DavidG25
        yesterday






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        Can happen, but would need a DM component much greater then a few hundred mV (100mV gives just half a volt at the output of that amplifier). Another reason to amplify early is that you make the rest of the systems noise FAR less of a problem by applying 14dB of gain in the front end. Now in practise, reality is messy and there will likely be filters before the diff amp, but they will typically be way outside the band of interest so that small tolerances have minimal effect. These exist to keep things like radio transmissions out of the electronics.
        $endgroup$
        – Dan Mills
        yesterday






      • 1




        $begingroup$
        @DanMills: +1 for your last point, though that could be further extended by observing that a cap between the two inputs of the amplifier will supply some low-pass filtering without creating any differential noise, but wouldn't usually be viewed as a "filter" per say in a block diagram.
        $endgroup$
        – supercat
        yesterday






      • 1




        $begingroup$
        @supercat Indeed, and you can take it a step further and split that cap into two in series, then place a SMALL valued one from the junction to chassis ground. The mismatch of the two larger series caps is attenuated because most of the CM voltage in the band of interest is dropped across the small cap to ground while at RF the big series caps are negligible impedances and the cap to ground shunts the RF current.
        $endgroup$
        – Dan Mills
        yesterday







      1




      1




      $begingroup$
      Could it be possible that the differential noise is great enough to warrant filtering before the amplifier despite a reduction in CMRR?
      $endgroup$
      – DavidG25
      yesterday




      $begingroup$
      Could it be possible that the differential noise is great enough to warrant filtering before the amplifier despite a reduction in CMRR?
      $endgroup$
      – DavidG25
      yesterday




      2




      2




      $begingroup$
      Can happen, but would need a DM component much greater then a few hundred mV (100mV gives just half a volt at the output of that amplifier). Another reason to amplify early is that you make the rest of the systems noise FAR less of a problem by applying 14dB of gain in the front end. Now in practise, reality is messy and there will likely be filters before the diff amp, but they will typically be way outside the band of interest so that small tolerances have minimal effect. These exist to keep things like radio transmissions out of the electronics.
      $endgroup$
      – Dan Mills
      yesterday




      $begingroup$
      Can happen, but would need a DM component much greater then a few hundred mV (100mV gives just half a volt at the output of that amplifier). Another reason to amplify early is that you make the rest of the systems noise FAR less of a problem by applying 14dB of gain in the front end. Now in practise, reality is messy and there will likely be filters before the diff amp, but they will typically be way outside the band of interest so that small tolerances have minimal effect. These exist to keep things like radio transmissions out of the electronics.
      $endgroup$
      – Dan Mills
      yesterday




      1




      1




      $begingroup$
      @DanMills: +1 for your last point, though that could be further extended by observing that a cap between the two inputs of the amplifier will supply some low-pass filtering without creating any differential noise, but wouldn't usually be viewed as a "filter" per say in a block diagram.
      $endgroup$
      – supercat
      yesterday




      $begingroup$
      @DanMills: +1 for your last point, though that could be further extended by observing that a cap between the two inputs of the amplifier will supply some low-pass filtering without creating any differential noise, but wouldn't usually be viewed as a "filter" per say in a block diagram.
      $endgroup$
      – supercat
      yesterday




      1




      1




      $begingroup$
      @supercat Indeed, and you can take it a step further and split that cap into two in series, then place a SMALL valued one from the junction to chassis ground. The mismatch of the two larger series caps is attenuated because most of the CM voltage in the band of interest is dropped across the small cap to ground while at RF the big series caps are negligible impedances and the cap to ground shunts the RF current.
      $endgroup$
      – Dan Mills
      yesterday




      $begingroup$
      @supercat Indeed, and you can take it a step further and split that cap into two in series, then place a SMALL valued one from the junction to chassis ground. The mismatch of the two larger series caps is attenuated because most of the CM voltage in the band of interest is dropped across the small cap to ground while at RF the big series caps are negligible impedances and the cap to ground shunts the RF current.
      $endgroup$
      – Dan Mills
      yesterday













      7












      $begingroup$

      The only filtering you ever do before the first amplifier is that related to shape of antenna/waveguide. And that only applies to microwave and higher frequencies.



      Conventional passive filters add noise -- you want the signal to be as large compared to that added noise as possible. Even if it means you are also amplifying interfering signals, you aren't changing the ratio of signal to in-band interfering signals, so you can filter interference just as effectively after amplification as before. But you cannot amplify as effectively after filtering, because you're already mixed in the filter's noise.



      Then you'll frequently amplify again after filtering, since now the full dynamic range can be applied to the frequencies of interest. But this is in addition to the pre-amplification, not instead.






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$

















        7












        $begingroup$

        The only filtering you ever do before the first amplifier is that related to shape of antenna/waveguide. And that only applies to microwave and higher frequencies.



        Conventional passive filters add noise -- you want the signal to be as large compared to that added noise as possible. Even if it means you are also amplifying interfering signals, you aren't changing the ratio of signal to in-band interfering signals, so you can filter interference just as effectively after amplification as before. But you cannot amplify as effectively after filtering, because you're already mixed in the filter's noise.



        Then you'll frequently amplify again after filtering, since now the full dynamic range can be applied to the frequencies of interest. But this is in addition to the pre-amplification, not instead.






        share|improve this answer









        $endgroup$















          7












          7








          7





          $begingroup$

          The only filtering you ever do before the first amplifier is that related to shape of antenna/waveguide. And that only applies to microwave and higher frequencies.



          Conventional passive filters add noise -- you want the signal to be as large compared to that added noise as possible. Even if it means you are also amplifying interfering signals, you aren't changing the ratio of signal to in-band interfering signals, so you can filter interference just as effectively after amplification as before. But you cannot amplify as effectively after filtering, because you're already mixed in the filter's noise.



          Then you'll frequently amplify again after filtering, since now the full dynamic range can be applied to the frequencies of interest. But this is in addition to the pre-amplification, not instead.






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$



          The only filtering you ever do before the first amplifier is that related to shape of antenna/waveguide. And that only applies to microwave and higher frequencies.



          Conventional passive filters add noise -- you want the signal to be as large compared to that added noise as possible. Even if it means you are also amplifying interfering signals, you aren't changing the ratio of signal to in-band interfering signals, so you can filter interference just as effectively after amplification as before. But you cannot amplify as effectively after filtering, because you're already mixed in the filter's noise.



          Then you'll frequently amplify again after filtering, since now the full dynamic range can be applied to the frequencies of interest. But this is in addition to the pre-amplification, not instead.







          share|improve this answer












          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered yesterday









          Ben VoigtBen Voigt

          1,91611526




          1,91611526





















              7












              $begingroup$

              I'll second @Andy's answer, and I'd like to add one thing.



              enter image description here



              A passive low-pass filter between the electrodes and the InAmp is called for. I put the cutoff frequency somewhere in the kHz region. InAmps have a great CMRR at low frequencies, but the CMRR degrades at higher frequencies (above 3kHz-10kHz depending on the chip). The EKG signal is at low frequency, so the high frequency can be filtered out even with somewhat mismatched passive components.






              share|improve this answer









              $endgroup$








              • 1




                $begingroup$
                High frequencies don't need to be filtered as common mode, because they can be filtered by lowpass AFTER the amplifier. You don't want passives in front of the amplifier on any small signal system, and especially on an ECG you want all the measurement electrodes to be connected to "infinite" input impedance FET stages incapable of passing current through the body. The RL drive slowly equalizes your circuit ground and body ground, you do NOT want to form a circuit with current flowing out RL drive and into a measurement channel.
                $endgroup$
                – Ben Voigt
                yesterday






              • 1




                $begingroup$
                @Ben High frequency common mode should be filtered out before the InAmp. InAmps reject common mode at low frequencies well. Unfortunately, InAmps have problems with high frequency common mode (above 10kHz, although this varies from one model of InAmp to another). CMRR is frequency-dependent, and it goes down at higher frequencies. [Just to keep to the subject. I view this mainly as a signal quality issue: protecting InAmp against EMI. If we want to consider patient safety aspects, I'd be happy to do that too.]
                $endgroup$
                – Nick Alexeev
                23 hours ago











              • $begingroup$
                You don't need CMRR at frequencies higher than the signal band. If they pass through the in-amp, it doesn't matter, because the following bandpass filters them out. What you don't want are any noise sources ahead of the first amplifier.
                $endgroup$
                – Ben Voigt
                23 hours ago






              • 1




                $begingroup$
                @Ben In addition to reduced CMRR at high frequency, InAmps also suffer from rectification at high frequency. A high frequency signal may get rectified by InAmp's input stage and then appear as a DC offset at the output. More in this app note: Analog Devices MT-070. In-Amp Input RFI Protection.
                $endgroup$
                – Nick Alexeev
                22 hours ago
















              7












              $begingroup$

              I'll second @Andy's answer, and I'd like to add one thing.



              enter image description here



              A passive low-pass filter between the electrodes and the InAmp is called for. I put the cutoff frequency somewhere in the kHz region. InAmps have a great CMRR at low frequencies, but the CMRR degrades at higher frequencies (above 3kHz-10kHz depending on the chip). The EKG signal is at low frequency, so the high frequency can be filtered out even with somewhat mismatched passive components.






              share|improve this answer









              $endgroup$








              • 1




                $begingroup$
                High frequencies don't need to be filtered as common mode, because they can be filtered by lowpass AFTER the amplifier. You don't want passives in front of the amplifier on any small signal system, and especially on an ECG you want all the measurement electrodes to be connected to "infinite" input impedance FET stages incapable of passing current through the body. The RL drive slowly equalizes your circuit ground and body ground, you do NOT want to form a circuit with current flowing out RL drive and into a measurement channel.
                $endgroup$
                – Ben Voigt
                yesterday






              • 1




                $begingroup$
                @Ben High frequency common mode should be filtered out before the InAmp. InAmps reject common mode at low frequencies well. Unfortunately, InAmps have problems with high frequency common mode (above 10kHz, although this varies from one model of InAmp to another). CMRR is frequency-dependent, and it goes down at higher frequencies. [Just to keep to the subject. I view this mainly as a signal quality issue: protecting InAmp against EMI. If we want to consider patient safety aspects, I'd be happy to do that too.]
                $endgroup$
                – Nick Alexeev
                23 hours ago











              • $begingroup$
                You don't need CMRR at frequencies higher than the signal band. If they pass through the in-amp, it doesn't matter, because the following bandpass filters them out. What you don't want are any noise sources ahead of the first amplifier.
                $endgroup$
                – Ben Voigt
                23 hours ago






              • 1




                $begingroup$
                @Ben In addition to reduced CMRR at high frequency, InAmps also suffer from rectification at high frequency. A high frequency signal may get rectified by InAmp's input stage and then appear as a DC offset at the output. More in this app note: Analog Devices MT-070. In-Amp Input RFI Protection.
                $endgroup$
                – Nick Alexeev
                22 hours ago














              7












              7








              7





              $begingroup$

              I'll second @Andy's answer, and I'd like to add one thing.



              enter image description here



              A passive low-pass filter between the electrodes and the InAmp is called for. I put the cutoff frequency somewhere in the kHz region. InAmps have a great CMRR at low frequencies, but the CMRR degrades at higher frequencies (above 3kHz-10kHz depending on the chip). The EKG signal is at low frequency, so the high frequency can be filtered out even with somewhat mismatched passive components.






              share|improve this answer









              $endgroup$



              I'll second @Andy's answer, and I'd like to add one thing.



              enter image description here



              A passive low-pass filter between the electrodes and the InAmp is called for. I put the cutoff frequency somewhere in the kHz region. InAmps have a great CMRR at low frequencies, but the CMRR degrades at higher frequencies (above 3kHz-10kHz depending on the chip). The EKG signal is at low frequency, so the high frequency can be filtered out even with somewhat mismatched passive components.







              share|improve this answer












              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer










              answered yesterday









              Nick AlexeevNick Alexeev

              32.9k1066170




              32.9k1066170







              • 1




                $begingroup$
                High frequencies don't need to be filtered as common mode, because they can be filtered by lowpass AFTER the amplifier. You don't want passives in front of the amplifier on any small signal system, and especially on an ECG you want all the measurement electrodes to be connected to "infinite" input impedance FET stages incapable of passing current through the body. The RL drive slowly equalizes your circuit ground and body ground, you do NOT want to form a circuit with current flowing out RL drive and into a measurement channel.
                $endgroup$
                – Ben Voigt
                yesterday






              • 1




                $begingroup$
                @Ben High frequency common mode should be filtered out before the InAmp. InAmps reject common mode at low frequencies well. Unfortunately, InAmps have problems with high frequency common mode (above 10kHz, although this varies from one model of InAmp to another). CMRR is frequency-dependent, and it goes down at higher frequencies. [Just to keep to the subject. I view this mainly as a signal quality issue: protecting InAmp against EMI. If we want to consider patient safety aspects, I'd be happy to do that too.]
                $endgroup$
                – Nick Alexeev
                23 hours ago











              • $begingroup$
                You don't need CMRR at frequencies higher than the signal band. If they pass through the in-amp, it doesn't matter, because the following bandpass filters them out. What you don't want are any noise sources ahead of the first amplifier.
                $endgroup$
                – Ben Voigt
                23 hours ago






              • 1




                $begingroup$
                @Ben In addition to reduced CMRR at high frequency, InAmps also suffer from rectification at high frequency. A high frequency signal may get rectified by InAmp's input stage and then appear as a DC offset at the output. More in this app note: Analog Devices MT-070. In-Amp Input RFI Protection.
                $endgroup$
                – Nick Alexeev
                22 hours ago













              • 1




                $begingroup$
                High frequencies don't need to be filtered as common mode, because they can be filtered by lowpass AFTER the amplifier. You don't want passives in front of the amplifier on any small signal system, and especially on an ECG you want all the measurement electrodes to be connected to "infinite" input impedance FET stages incapable of passing current through the body. The RL drive slowly equalizes your circuit ground and body ground, you do NOT want to form a circuit with current flowing out RL drive and into a measurement channel.
                $endgroup$
                – Ben Voigt
                yesterday






              • 1




                $begingroup$
                @Ben High frequency common mode should be filtered out before the InAmp. InAmps reject common mode at low frequencies well. Unfortunately, InAmps have problems with high frequency common mode (above 10kHz, although this varies from one model of InAmp to another). CMRR is frequency-dependent, and it goes down at higher frequencies. [Just to keep to the subject. I view this mainly as a signal quality issue: protecting InAmp against EMI. If we want to consider patient safety aspects, I'd be happy to do that too.]
                $endgroup$
                – Nick Alexeev
                23 hours ago











              • $begingroup$
                You don't need CMRR at frequencies higher than the signal band. If they pass through the in-amp, it doesn't matter, because the following bandpass filters them out. What you don't want are any noise sources ahead of the first amplifier.
                $endgroup$
                – Ben Voigt
                23 hours ago






              • 1




                $begingroup$
                @Ben In addition to reduced CMRR at high frequency, InAmps also suffer from rectification at high frequency. A high frequency signal may get rectified by InAmp's input stage and then appear as a DC offset at the output. More in this app note: Analog Devices MT-070. In-Amp Input RFI Protection.
                $endgroup$
                – Nick Alexeev
                22 hours ago








              1




              1




              $begingroup$
              High frequencies don't need to be filtered as common mode, because they can be filtered by lowpass AFTER the amplifier. You don't want passives in front of the amplifier on any small signal system, and especially on an ECG you want all the measurement electrodes to be connected to "infinite" input impedance FET stages incapable of passing current through the body. The RL drive slowly equalizes your circuit ground and body ground, you do NOT want to form a circuit with current flowing out RL drive and into a measurement channel.
              $endgroup$
              – Ben Voigt
              yesterday




              $begingroup$
              High frequencies don't need to be filtered as common mode, because they can be filtered by lowpass AFTER the amplifier. You don't want passives in front of the amplifier on any small signal system, and especially on an ECG you want all the measurement electrodes to be connected to "infinite" input impedance FET stages incapable of passing current through the body. The RL drive slowly equalizes your circuit ground and body ground, you do NOT want to form a circuit with current flowing out RL drive and into a measurement channel.
              $endgroup$
              – Ben Voigt
              yesterday




              1




              1




              $begingroup$
              @Ben High frequency common mode should be filtered out before the InAmp. InAmps reject common mode at low frequencies well. Unfortunately, InAmps have problems with high frequency common mode (above 10kHz, although this varies from one model of InAmp to another). CMRR is frequency-dependent, and it goes down at higher frequencies. [Just to keep to the subject. I view this mainly as a signal quality issue: protecting InAmp against EMI. If we want to consider patient safety aspects, I'd be happy to do that too.]
              $endgroup$
              – Nick Alexeev
              23 hours ago





              $begingroup$
              @Ben High frequency common mode should be filtered out before the InAmp. InAmps reject common mode at low frequencies well. Unfortunately, InAmps have problems with high frequency common mode (above 10kHz, although this varies from one model of InAmp to another). CMRR is frequency-dependent, and it goes down at higher frequencies. [Just to keep to the subject. I view this mainly as a signal quality issue: protecting InAmp against EMI. If we want to consider patient safety aspects, I'd be happy to do that too.]
              $endgroup$
              – Nick Alexeev
              23 hours ago













              $begingroup$
              You don't need CMRR at frequencies higher than the signal band. If they pass through the in-amp, it doesn't matter, because the following bandpass filters them out. What you don't want are any noise sources ahead of the first amplifier.
              $endgroup$
              – Ben Voigt
              23 hours ago




              $begingroup$
              You don't need CMRR at frequencies higher than the signal band. If they pass through the in-amp, it doesn't matter, because the following bandpass filters them out. What you don't want are any noise sources ahead of the first amplifier.
              $endgroup$
              – Ben Voigt
              23 hours ago




              1




              1




              $begingroup$
              @Ben In addition to reduced CMRR at high frequency, InAmps also suffer from rectification at high frequency. A high frequency signal may get rectified by InAmp's input stage and then appear as a DC offset at the output. More in this app note: Analog Devices MT-070. In-Amp Input RFI Protection.
              $endgroup$
              – Nick Alexeev
              22 hours ago





              $begingroup$
              @Ben In addition to reduced CMRR at high frequency, InAmps also suffer from rectification at high frequency. A high frequency signal may get rectified by InAmp's input stage and then appear as a DC offset at the output. More in this app note: Analog Devices MT-070. In-Amp Input RFI Protection.
              $endgroup$
              – Nick Alexeev
              22 hours ago












              7












              $begingroup$

              Andy and Nick offered great answers. Let me try to beef them up just a little.



              First, the math says that amplifying then filtering is equivalent to filtering then amplifying. This, of course, applies to the ideal situation, so lets discuss the non-idealities.



              The BIG one here, IMO, is saturation. If the noise is so big that it saturates your amplifier, all bets are off. You lose signal. Does this bother us here?? Not really. We usually leave the gain of that InAmp stage low enough to deal with 100mV or so of DC electrode offset, so gain is modest and we're unlikely to saturate.



              Next concern involving non-idealities, as already mentioned, is Common Mode noise and CMRR. We want the CMRR in the pass band to be excellent. If we hurt the CMRR in the pass band, we decrease SNR.
              I'm not totally with Nick on the prefiltering in the kHz range, but I usually follow manufacturer guidelines for RF filtering, and maybe even go a decade in frequency below their recommendations. When I build these filters, I often use X2Y caps to try to keep the caps well-matched.



              Lastly, let's think about the signal path all the way to the signal in the body. The impedance of the electrode/skin interface will always vary, and every design needs to take that into account. Because of the tremendous input impedance of today's InAmps, this isn't quite as big a deal as it used to be. In fact, to meet NFPA99 hospital safety standards (when I know I have to bring a device through clinical engineering for inspection) I often put a big honking resistor on each electrode lead to guarantee compliance (<10 microamps)given a failure of Rail voltage at the amp inputs. I match those resistors well, but it probably doesn't make as much difference as I like to think it does, especially given mismatch at the electrode, so to some extent, we're kidding ourselves to make believe that just because we don't throw a filter in before the amp that the signal paths of all electrode leads are well matched -- they're just well matched enough. Variations here, however, can make nailing the cutoff frequency of a filter we choose to put here a bit iffy.



              Throw Driven-Leg into the mix, and you're probably about 20dB better. InAmps aren't what they were in John Webster's day. We have inexpensive units with impedances that he could only dream about.



              The way I approach such issues is to get my differential signal converted to single-ended as soon as I possibly can, treating as gingerly as I can get away with right up until the Instrumentation Amp with modest gain, and after that, I do whatever I want. With good part selection, you can really get microvolt-level noise with millivolt-level signals.



              As a last point, Nick's point about ESD protection is a good one. For my stuff, I don't particularly care, but have you ever wondered how clinical ECG units don't just pop when a patient is defibrillated? Thousands of volts presented to the inputs, and a well-designed unit just laughs and goes about it's business.






              share|improve this answer











              $endgroup$

















                7












                $begingroup$

                Andy and Nick offered great answers. Let me try to beef them up just a little.



                First, the math says that amplifying then filtering is equivalent to filtering then amplifying. This, of course, applies to the ideal situation, so lets discuss the non-idealities.



                The BIG one here, IMO, is saturation. If the noise is so big that it saturates your amplifier, all bets are off. You lose signal. Does this bother us here?? Not really. We usually leave the gain of that InAmp stage low enough to deal with 100mV or so of DC electrode offset, so gain is modest and we're unlikely to saturate.



                Next concern involving non-idealities, as already mentioned, is Common Mode noise and CMRR. We want the CMRR in the pass band to be excellent. If we hurt the CMRR in the pass band, we decrease SNR.
                I'm not totally with Nick on the prefiltering in the kHz range, but I usually follow manufacturer guidelines for RF filtering, and maybe even go a decade in frequency below their recommendations. When I build these filters, I often use X2Y caps to try to keep the caps well-matched.



                Lastly, let's think about the signal path all the way to the signal in the body. The impedance of the electrode/skin interface will always vary, and every design needs to take that into account. Because of the tremendous input impedance of today's InAmps, this isn't quite as big a deal as it used to be. In fact, to meet NFPA99 hospital safety standards (when I know I have to bring a device through clinical engineering for inspection) I often put a big honking resistor on each electrode lead to guarantee compliance (<10 microamps)given a failure of Rail voltage at the amp inputs. I match those resistors well, but it probably doesn't make as much difference as I like to think it does, especially given mismatch at the electrode, so to some extent, we're kidding ourselves to make believe that just because we don't throw a filter in before the amp that the signal paths of all electrode leads are well matched -- they're just well matched enough. Variations here, however, can make nailing the cutoff frequency of a filter we choose to put here a bit iffy.



                Throw Driven-Leg into the mix, and you're probably about 20dB better. InAmps aren't what they were in John Webster's day. We have inexpensive units with impedances that he could only dream about.



                The way I approach such issues is to get my differential signal converted to single-ended as soon as I possibly can, treating as gingerly as I can get away with right up until the Instrumentation Amp with modest gain, and after that, I do whatever I want. With good part selection, you can really get microvolt-level noise with millivolt-level signals.



                As a last point, Nick's point about ESD protection is a good one. For my stuff, I don't particularly care, but have you ever wondered how clinical ECG units don't just pop when a patient is defibrillated? Thousands of volts presented to the inputs, and a well-designed unit just laughs and goes about it's business.






                share|improve this answer











                $endgroup$















                  7












                  7








                  7





                  $begingroup$

                  Andy and Nick offered great answers. Let me try to beef them up just a little.



                  First, the math says that amplifying then filtering is equivalent to filtering then amplifying. This, of course, applies to the ideal situation, so lets discuss the non-idealities.



                  The BIG one here, IMO, is saturation. If the noise is so big that it saturates your amplifier, all bets are off. You lose signal. Does this bother us here?? Not really. We usually leave the gain of that InAmp stage low enough to deal with 100mV or so of DC electrode offset, so gain is modest and we're unlikely to saturate.



                  Next concern involving non-idealities, as already mentioned, is Common Mode noise and CMRR. We want the CMRR in the pass band to be excellent. If we hurt the CMRR in the pass band, we decrease SNR.
                  I'm not totally with Nick on the prefiltering in the kHz range, but I usually follow manufacturer guidelines for RF filtering, and maybe even go a decade in frequency below their recommendations. When I build these filters, I often use X2Y caps to try to keep the caps well-matched.



                  Lastly, let's think about the signal path all the way to the signal in the body. The impedance of the electrode/skin interface will always vary, and every design needs to take that into account. Because of the tremendous input impedance of today's InAmps, this isn't quite as big a deal as it used to be. In fact, to meet NFPA99 hospital safety standards (when I know I have to bring a device through clinical engineering for inspection) I often put a big honking resistor on each electrode lead to guarantee compliance (<10 microamps)given a failure of Rail voltage at the amp inputs. I match those resistors well, but it probably doesn't make as much difference as I like to think it does, especially given mismatch at the electrode, so to some extent, we're kidding ourselves to make believe that just because we don't throw a filter in before the amp that the signal paths of all electrode leads are well matched -- they're just well matched enough. Variations here, however, can make nailing the cutoff frequency of a filter we choose to put here a bit iffy.



                  Throw Driven-Leg into the mix, and you're probably about 20dB better. InAmps aren't what they were in John Webster's day. We have inexpensive units with impedances that he could only dream about.



                  The way I approach such issues is to get my differential signal converted to single-ended as soon as I possibly can, treating as gingerly as I can get away with right up until the Instrumentation Amp with modest gain, and after that, I do whatever I want. With good part selection, you can really get microvolt-level noise with millivolt-level signals.



                  As a last point, Nick's point about ESD protection is a good one. For my stuff, I don't particularly care, but have you ever wondered how clinical ECG units don't just pop when a patient is defibrillated? Thousands of volts presented to the inputs, and a well-designed unit just laughs and goes about it's business.






                  share|improve this answer











                  $endgroup$



                  Andy and Nick offered great answers. Let me try to beef them up just a little.



                  First, the math says that amplifying then filtering is equivalent to filtering then amplifying. This, of course, applies to the ideal situation, so lets discuss the non-idealities.



                  The BIG one here, IMO, is saturation. If the noise is so big that it saturates your amplifier, all bets are off. You lose signal. Does this bother us here?? Not really. We usually leave the gain of that InAmp stage low enough to deal with 100mV or so of DC electrode offset, so gain is modest and we're unlikely to saturate.



                  Next concern involving non-idealities, as already mentioned, is Common Mode noise and CMRR. We want the CMRR in the pass band to be excellent. If we hurt the CMRR in the pass band, we decrease SNR.
                  I'm not totally with Nick on the prefiltering in the kHz range, but I usually follow manufacturer guidelines for RF filtering, and maybe even go a decade in frequency below their recommendations. When I build these filters, I often use X2Y caps to try to keep the caps well-matched.



                  Lastly, let's think about the signal path all the way to the signal in the body. The impedance of the electrode/skin interface will always vary, and every design needs to take that into account. Because of the tremendous input impedance of today's InAmps, this isn't quite as big a deal as it used to be. In fact, to meet NFPA99 hospital safety standards (when I know I have to bring a device through clinical engineering for inspection) I often put a big honking resistor on each electrode lead to guarantee compliance (<10 microamps)given a failure of Rail voltage at the amp inputs. I match those resistors well, but it probably doesn't make as much difference as I like to think it does, especially given mismatch at the electrode, so to some extent, we're kidding ourselves to make believe that just because we don't throw a filter in before the amp that the signal paths of all electrode leads are well matched -- they're just well matched enough. Variations here, however, can make nailing the cutoff frequency of a filter we choose to put here a bit iffy.



                  Throw Driven-Leg into the mix, and you're probably about 20dB better. InAmps aren't what they were in John Webster's day. We have inexpensive units with impedances that he could only dream about.



                  The way I approach such issues is to get my differential signal converted to single-ended as soon as I possibly can, treating as gingerly as I can get away with right up until the Instrumentation Amp with modest gain, and after that, I do whatever I want. With good part selection, you can really get microvolt-level noise with millivolt-level signals.



                  As a last point, Nick's point about ESD protection is a good one. For my stuff, I don't particularly care, but have you ever wondered how clinical ECG units don't just pop when a patient is defibrillated? Thousands of volts presented to the inputs, and a well-designed unit just laughs and goes about it's business.







                  share|improve this answer














                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer








                  edited 13 hours ago

























                  answered 14 hours ago









                  Scott SeidmanScott Seidman

                  23k43287




                  23k43287



























                      draft saved

                      draft discarded
















































                      Thanks for contributing an answer to Electrical Engineering Stack Exchange!


                      • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

                      But avoid


                      • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

                      • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

                      Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


                      To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




                      draft saved


                      draft discarded














                      StackExchange.ready(
                      function ()
                      StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2felectronics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f438620%2fwhy-would-you-put-your-input-amplifier-in-front-of-your-filtering-for-an-ecg-sig%23new-answer', 'question_page');

                      );

                      Post as a guest















                      Required, but never shown





















































                      Required, but never shown














                      Required, but never shown












                      Required, but never shown







                      Required, but never shown

































                      Required, but never shown














                      Required, but never shown












                      Required, but never shown







                      Required, but never shown







                      Popular posts from this blog

                      Log på Navigationsmenu

                      Wonderful Copenhagen (sang) Eksterne henvisninger | NavigationsmenurSide på frankloesser.comWonderful Copenhagen

                      Detroit Tigers Spis treści Historia | Skład zespołu | Sukcesy | Członkowie Baseball Hall of Fame | Zastrzeżone numery | Przypisy | Menu nawigacyjneEncyclopedia of Detroit - Detroit TigersTigers Stadium, Detroit, MITigers Timeline 1900sDetroit Tigers Team History & EncyclopediaTigers Timeline 1910s1935 World Series1945 World Series1945 World Series1984 World SeriesComerica Park, Detroit, MI2006 World Series2012 World SeriesDetroit Tigers 40-Man RosterDetroit Tigers Coaching StaffTigers Hall of FamersTigers Retired Numberse