Is a vertical stabiliser needed for straight line flight in a glider?How can I estimate the minimum runway needed to take off with a hang glider?Why use plywood to hold the bearings for the airbrakes on a fibreglass glider?Why do aircraft need a vertical tailfin, but birds don't? (and lots of fish do?)Are the panels in this vertical stabilizer part of the flight controls?Has there been research into alternatives for the vertical stabilizer?Is it possible for a modified hang glider to land safely coming from orbit?Does anyone know an equation relating wingspan to gliding distance for a glider?Why is polar curve of a glider dependent on flight load?What should I look for in weather reports in order to pick a day for glider flying?Which airfoil would be optimum for a glider?

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Is a vertical stabiliser needed for straight line flight in a glider?

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Is a vertical stabiliser needed for straight line flight in a glider?


How can I estimate the minimum runway needed to take off with a hang glider?Why use plywood to hold the bearings for the airbrakes on a fibreglass glider?Why do aircraft need a vertical tailfin, but birds don't? (and lots of fish do?)Are the panels in this vertical stabilizer part of the flight controls?Has there been research into alternatives for the vertical stabilizer?Is it possible for a modified hang glider to land safely coming from orbit?Does anyone know an equation relating wingspan to gliding distance for a glider?Why is polar curve of a glider dependent on flight load?What should I look for in weather reports in order to pick a day for glider flying?Which airfoil would be optimum for a glider?













3












$begingroup$


My team is designing a glider and I am unsure about whether or not to include a vertical stabiliser. The task the glider must complete is to achieve the largest possible displacement in a straight line.



Our glider will not be able to automatically adjust the vertical stabiliser's position so it would stay upright and inline with the glider's fuselage for the duration of the flight. Since our glider does not require any changes in it's yaw angle (because it is flying in a straight line), I don't think there is a need for it.



Should we include a vertical stabiliser or not?










share|improve this question







New contributor



Tom Finet is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






$endgroup$











  • $begingroup$
    Will your design have another active (control) or passive (stability) means of countering yaw disturbances (e.g. wind, turbulence or minimal asymmetries)? Is the design stable in yaw due geometry even without stabiliser?
    $endgroup$
    – Cpt Reynolds
    9 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    As of now we just have symmetrical wings and glider body, so no ways of countering yaw disturbances except for minimal asymmetries. Is it safer to include the static vertical stabiliser to counter the small disturbances in yaw?
    $endgroup$
    – Tom Finet
    9 hours ago







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    I'm assuming this is unmanned.
    $endgroup$
    – GdD
    9 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Yep just a casual project.
    $endgroup$
    – Tom Finet
    9 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    I don't know much about aircraft design, but if you told me that your boat didn't need a rudder because you only needed it to go in a straight line, I would ask how you proposed to keep it on that straight line if you don't have a rudder to correct the course?
    $endgroup$
    – Solomon Slow
    2 hours ago















3












$begingroup$


My team is designing a glider and I am unsure about whether or not to include a vertical stabiliser. The task the glider must complete is to achieve the largest possible displacement in a straight line.



Our glider will not be able to automatically adjust the vertical stabiliser's position so it would stay upright and inline with the glider's fuselage for the duration of the flight. Since our glider does not require any changes in it's yaw angle (because it is flying in a straight line), I don't think there is a need for it.



Should we include a vertical stabiliser or not?










share|improve this question







New contributor



Tom Finet is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






$endgroup$











  • $begingroup$
    Will your design have another active (control) or passive (stability) means of countering yaw disturbances (e.g. wind, turbulence or minimal asymmetries)? Is the design stable in yaw due geometry even without stabiliser?
    $endgroup$
    – Cpt Reynolds
    9 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    As of now we just have symmetrical wings and glider body, so no ways of countering yaw disturbances except for minimal asymmetries. Is it safer to include the static vertical stabiliser to counter the small disturbances in yaw?
    $endgroup$
    – Tom Finet
    9 hours ago







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    I'm assuming this is unmanned.
    $endgroup$
    – GdD
    9 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Yep just a casual project.
    $endgroup$
    – Tom Finet
    9 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    I don't know much about aircraft design, but if you told me that your boat didn't need a rudder because you only needed it to go in a straight line, I would ask how you proposed to keep it on that straight line if you don't have a rudder to correct the course?
    $endgroup$
    – Solomon Slow
    2 hours ago













3












3








3





$begingroup$


My team is designing a glider and I am unsure about whether or not to include a vertical stabiliser. The task the glider must complete is to achieve the largest possible displacement in a straight line.



Our glider will not be able to automatically adjust the vertical stabiliser's position so it would stay upright and inline with the glider's fuselage for the duration of the flight. Since our glider does not require any changes in it's yaw angle (because it is flying in a straight line), I don't think there is a need for it.



Should we include a vertical stabiliser or not?










share|improve this question







New contributor



Tom Finet is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






$endgroup$




My team is designing a glider and I am unsure about whether or not to include a vertical stabiliser. The task the glider must complete is to achieve the largest possible displacement in a straight line.



Our glider will not be able to automatically adjust the vertical stabiliser's position so it would stay upright and inline with the glider's fuselage for the duration of the flight. Since our glider does not require any changes in it's yaw angle (because it is flying in a straight line), I don't think there is a need for it.



Should we include a vertical stabiliser or not?







stability glider vertical-stabilizer






share|improve this question







New contributor



Tom Finet is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.










share|improve this question







New contributor



Tom Finet is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.








share|improve this question




share|improve this question






New contributor



Tom Finet is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.








asked 10 hours ago









Tom FinetTom Finet

161




161




New contributor



Tom Finet is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.




New contributor




Tom Finet is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.













  • $begingroup$
    Will your design have another active (control) or passive (stability) means of countering yaw disturbances (e.g. wind, turbulence or minimal asymmetries)? Is the design stable in yaw due geometry even without stabiliser?
    $endgroup$
    – Cpt Reynolds
    9 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    As of now we just have symmetrical wings and glider body, so no ways of countering yaw disturbances except for minimal asymmetries. Is it safer to include the static vertical stabiliser to counter the small disturbances in yaw?
    $endgroup$
    – Tom Finet
    9 hours ago







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    I'm assuming this is unmanned.
    $endgroup$
    – GdD
    9 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Yep just a casual project.
    $endgroup$
    – Tom Finet
    9 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    I don't know much about aircraft design, but if you told me that your boat didn't need a rudder because you only needed it to go in a straight line, I would ask how you proposed to keep it on that straight line if you don't have a rudder to correct the course?
    $endgroup$
    – Solomon Slow
    2 hours ago
















  • $begingroup$
    Will your design have another active (control) or passive (stability) means of countering yaw disturbances (e.g. wind, turbulence or minimal asymmetries)? Is the design stable in yaw due geometry even without stabiliser?
    $endgroup$
    – Cpt Reynolds
    9 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    As of now we just have symmetrical wings and glider body, so no ways of countering yaw disturbances except for minimal asymmetries. Is it safer to include the static vertical stabiliser to counter the small disturbances in yaw?
    $endgroup$
    – Tom Finet
    9 hours ago







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    I'm assuming this is unmanned.
    $endgroup$
    – GdD
    9 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Yep just a casual project.
    $endgroup$
    – Tom Finet
    9 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    I don't know much about aircraft design, but if you told me that your boat didn't need a rudder because you only needed it to go in a straight line, I would ask how you proposed to keep it on that straight line if you don't have a rudder to correct the course?
    $endgroup$
    – Solomon Slow
    2 hours ago















$begingroup$
Will your design have another active (control) or passive (stability) means of countering yaw disturbances (e.g. wind, turbulence or minimal asymmetries)? Is the design stable in yaw due geometry even without stabiliser?
$endgroup$
– Cpt Reynolds
9 hours ago




$begingroup$
Will your design have another active (control) or passive (stability) means of countering yaw disturbances (e.g. wind, turbulence or minimal asymmetries)? Is the design stable in yaw due geometry even without stabiliser?
$endgroup$
– Cpt Reynolds
9 hours ago












$begingroup$
As of now we just have symmetrical wings and glider body, so no ways of countering yaw disturbances except for minimal asymmetries. Is it safer to include the static vertical stabiliser to counter the small disturbances in yaw?
$endgroup$
– Tom Finet
9 hours ago





$begingroup$
As of now we just have symmetrical wings and glider body, so no ways of countering yaw disturbances except for minimal asymmetries. Is it safer to include the static vertical stabiliser to counter the small disturbances in yaw?
$endgroup$
– Tom Finet
9 hours ago





1




1




$begingroup$
I'm assuming this is unmanned.
$endgroup$
– GdD
9 hours ago




$begingroup$
I'm assuming this is unmanned.
$endgroup$
– GdD
9 hours ago












$begingroup$
Yep just a casual project.
$endgroup$
– Tom Finet
9 hours ago




$begingroup$
Yep just a casual project.
$endgroup$
– Tom Finet
9 hours ago




2




2




$begingroup$
I don't know much about aircraft design, but if you told me that your boat didn't need a rudder because you only needed it to go in a straight line, I would ask how you proposed to keep it on that straight line if you don't have a rudder to correct the course?
$endgroup$
– Solomon Slow
2 hours ago




$begingroup$
I don't know much about aircraft design, but if you told me that your boat didn't need a rudder because you only needed it to go in a straight line, I would ask how you proposed to keep it on that straight line if you don't have a rudder to correct the course?
$endgroup$
– Solomon Slow
2 hours ago










5 Answers
5






active

oldest

votes


















6












$begingroup$

The stabilizer is meant to keep the nose pointing into the wind.



Any asymmetry in he wings/fuselage will create a tendency to yaw, you will need to compensate for that. The easiest is a fixed vertical stabilizer at the rear.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$




















    6












    $begingroup$

    The underlying function of a VTP (not rudder) is mitigating the lateral-directional eigenmodes of the aircraft (Dutch roll, spiral divergence and roll subsidience). Unless you can guarantee a perfect launch and no crosswind, you will need some kind of yaw damping.



    For a conventionally-shaped aircraft, Dutch Roll will likely be the worst offender, as roll subsidience is convergent and spiral divergence is slow.



    A vertical tailplane is just one solution, however. Other things that can contribute to yaw control are positive wing sweep and active control via spoilerons or differential engine thrust. The latter is commonly employed in flying wings, but since your airfoil is not a reflex one, I take it you are going the conventional route.






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$




















      5












      $begingroup$

      It's unlikely that your project will succeed without a vertical fin. Are you aware that there are countless radio-controlled model airplanes and gliders that feature a fixed vertical fin but no rudder? The fin is much more than just a thing to attach the rudder to. The rudder itself is not very necessary if the aspect ratio of the wing is not too high. (High-aspect-ratio designs tend to suffer from severe "adverse yaw".)



      But, the birds seem to be able to pull it off, so you never know. The distribution of the "twist" or washout in the wing seems to be a key factor for them.



      The literal answer to the question in the title is definitely "no". Many successful gliders have been flown without vertical fins. and they can do much more than just fly in a straight line. But they don't typically look like a "normal" glider with the fin chopped off.






      share|improve this answer











      $endgroup$








      • 3




        $begingroup$
        The birds have two things model (or real) airplanes lack: Extremely flexible wings which can generate large yawing moments (adverse and proverse, as required), and semi-automatic stability augmentation by the bird's brain. That explains why they don't need a vertical.
        $endgroup$
        – Peter Kämpf
        5 hours ago










      • $begingroup$
        @PeterKämpf Also I have observed bird tailfeathers be articulated in many ways, including angling them as a group to seemingly create (and presumably cancel) yaw as well as bank.
        $endgroup$
        – Todd Wilcox
        4 hours ago










      • $begingroup$
        Absolutely to the last, they definitely twist their tails to vector the lift to create a rudderlike effect. If you watch carefully it is not obvious that the resulting "inputs" are the same ones a sailplane pilot would make with the rudder while entering a turn or exiting a turn, etc.
        $endgroup$
        – quiet flyer
        3 hours ago










      • $begingroup$
        The V-tail Bonanza had no fin.
        $endgroup$
        – copper.hat
        3 hours ago


















      1












      $begingroup$

      In reference to radio control models, there have been many that don't have a vertical fin of any kind. The Klingberg Wing (from the 1980s/1990s) is a fine example; it's a pure wing R/C sailplane. There have also been human-carrying sailplanes built along similar lines (generally, a Horten derived layout) that flew well without any sort of vertical surface.



      If the glider is built for free flight (i.e. uncontrolled), it will generally need some kind of vertical in order to maintain spiral stability, but this is largely because free flight models are generally set up to fly in circles, both so they can catch thermal lift, and so they don't just fly away as soon as they're launched. In your case, however, where you want the glider to fly a maximum straight line distance, a setup similar to a Klingberg wing (swept wing, longitudinally stabilized by tip twist) is likely to be one of the most efficient possible.






      share|improve this answer











      $endgroup$












      • $begingroup$
        The Klingberg wing is actually identical to a Horten wing, and its yaw stability is achieved by sweep. Sweep generally costs performance, as does sideslip to which both are very prone, especially at high speed.
        $endgroup$
        – Peter Kämpf
        5 hours ago


















      0












      $begingroup$

      It may not be whether you need one or not, it will probably be getting the right size.



      Theoretically, one can design without one like a delta wing dihedralled paper airplane.
      The sides of the fuselage aft of CG act as a vertical stabilizer (make them flat).



      However, in practice, for free flight (uncontrolled), it is almost impossible to get the wing drag to perfectly match for long efficient high aspect ratio wings, so on go the fin(s), but where?



      Many gliders have wings longer than the fuselage. A fin can go at each wing tip, or conventionally on top of the fuselage. The wing tip fins will have a longer torque arm,
      there for can be smaller. But the conventional tail placement has a drag saving trick up its
      sleeve, putting the vertical stabilizer on top. This uses the drag of the T tail for down force rather than deflecting the elevator. And, of course, you can combine the Hstab and V stab
      and make a "Vee" tail.



      So design for a vertical fin, and test in in various sizes. If it works without one great! If not
      put it (them) on there. That is exactly what the Air Force did when they converted the propeller driven B35 flying wing to that jet powered B49.






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$













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        5 Answers
        5






        active

        oldest

        votes








        5 Answers
        5






        active

        oldest

        votes









        active

        oldest

        votes






        active

        oldest

        votes









        6












        $begingroup$

        The stabilizer is meant to keep the nose pointing into the wind.



        Any asymmetry in he wings/fuselage will create a tendency to yaw, you will need to compensate for that. The easiest is a fixed vertical stabilizer at the rear.






        share|improve this answer









        $endgroup$

















          6












          $begingroup$

          The stabilizer is meant to keep the nose pointing into the wind.



          Any asymmetry in he wings/fuselage will create a tendency to yaw, you will need to compensate for that. The easiest is a fixed vertical stabilizer at the rear.






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$















            6












            6








            6





            $begingroup$

            The stabilizer is meant to keep the nose pointing into the wind.



            Any asymmetry in he wings/fuselage will create a tendency to yaw, you will need to compensate for that. The easiest is a fixed vertical stabilizer at the rear.






            share|improve this answer









            $endgroup$



            The stabilizer is meant to keep the nose pointing into the wind.



            Any asymmetry in he wings/fuselage will create a tendency to yaw, you will need to compensate for that. The easiest is a fixed vertical stabilizer at the rear.







            share|improve this answer












            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered 8 hours ago









            ratchet freakratchet freak

            24.9k470132




            24.9k470132





















                6












                $begingroup$

                The underlying function of a VTP (not rudder) is mitigating the lateral-directional eigenmodes of the aircraft (Dutch roll, spiral divergence and roll subsidience). Unless you can guarantee a perfect launch and no crosswind, you will need some kind of yaw damping.



                For a conventionally-shaped aircraft, Dutch Roll will likely be the worst offender, as roll subsidience is convergent and spiral divergence is slow.



                A vertical tailplane is just one solution, however. Other things that can contribute to yaw control are positive wing sweep and active control via spoilerons or differential engine thrust. The latter is commonly employed in flying wings, but since your airfoil is not a reflex one, I take it you are going the conventional route.






                share|improve this answer









                $endgroup$

















                  6












                  $begingroup$

                  The underlying function of a VTP (not rudder) is mitigating the lateral-directional eigenmodes of the aircraft (Dutch roll, spiral divergence and roll subsidience). Unless you can guarantee a perfect launch and no crosswind, you will need some kind of yaw damping.



                  For a conventionally-shaped aircraft, Dutch Roll will likely be the worst offender, as roll subsidience is convergent and spiral divergence is slow.



                  A vertical tailplane is just one solution, however. Other things that can contribute to yaw control are positive wing sweep and active control via spoilerons or differential engine thrust. The latter is commonly employed in flying wings, but since your airfoil is not a reflex one, I take it you are going the conventional route.






                  share|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$















                    6












                    6








                    6





                    $begingroup$

                    The underlying function of a VTP (not rudder) is mitigating the lateral-directional eigenmodes of the aircraft (Dutch roll, spiral divergence and roll subsidience). Unless you can guarantee a perfect launch and no crosswind, you will need some kind of yaw damping.



                    For a conventionally-shaped aircraft, Dutch Roll will likely be the worst offender, as roll subsidience is convergent and spiral divergence is slow.



                    A vertical tailplane is just one solution, however. Other things that can contribute to yaw control are positive wing sweep and active control via spoilerons or differential engine thrust. The latter is commonly employed in flying wings, but since your airfoil is not a reflex one, I take it you are going the conventional route.






                    share|improve this answer









                    $endgroup$



                    The underlying function of a VTP (not rudder) is mitigating the lateral-directional eigenmodes of the aircraft (Dutch roll, spiral divergence and roll subsidience). Unless you can guarantee a perfect launch and no crosswind, you will need some kind of yaw damping.



                    For a conventionally-shaped aircraft, Dutch Roll will likely be the worst offender, as roll subsidience is convergent and spiral divergence is slow.



                    A vertical tailplane is just one solution, however. Other things that can contribute to yaw control are positive wing sweep and active control via spoilerons or differential engine thrust. The latter is commonly employed in flying wings, but since your airfoil is not a reflex one, I take it you are going the conventional route.







                    share|improve this answer












                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer










                    answered 6 hours ago









                    AEhereAEhere

                    2,383826




                    2,383826





















                        5












                        $begingroup$

                        It's unlikely that your project will succeed without a vertical fin. Are you aware that there are countless radio-controlled model airplanes and gliders that feature a fixed vertical fin but no rudder? The fin is much more than just a thing to attach the rudder to. The rudder itself is not very necessary if the aspect ratio of the wing is not too high. (High-aspect-ratio designs tend to suffer from severe "adverse yaw".)



                        But, the birds seem to be able to pull it off, so you never know. The distribution of the "twist" or washout in the wing seems to be a key factor for them.



                        The literal answer to the question in the title is definitely "no". Many successful gliders have been flown without vertical fins. and they can do much more than just fly in a straight line. But they don't typically look like a "normal" glider with the fin chopped off.






                        share|improve this answer











                        $endgroup$








                        • 3




                          $begingroup$
                          The birds have two things model (or real) airplanes lack: Extremely flexible wings which can generate large yawing moments (adverse and proverse, as required), and semi-automatic stability augmentation by the bird's brain. That explains why they don't need a vertical.
                          $endgroup$
                          – Peter Kämpf
                          5 hours ago










                        • $begingroup$
                          @PeterKämpf Also I have observed bird tailfeathers be articulated in many ways, including angling them as a group to seemingly create (and presumably cancel) yaw as well as bank.
                          $endgroup$
                          – Todd Wilcox
                          4 hours ago










                        • $begingroup$
                          Absolutely to the last, they definitely twist their tails to vector the lift to create a rudderlike effect. If you watch carefully it is not obvious that the resulting "inputs" are the same ones a sailplane pilot would make with the rudder while entering a turn or exiting a turn, etc.
                          $endgroup$
                          – quiet flyer
                          3 hours ago










                        • $begingroup$
                          The V-tail Bonanza had no fin.
                          $endgroup$
                          – copper.hat
                          3 hours ago















                        5












                        $begingroup$

                        It's unlikely that your project will succeed without a vertical fin. Are you aware that there are countless radio-controlled model airplanes and gliders that feature a fixed vertical fin but no rudder? The fin is much more than just a thing to attach the rudder to. The rudder itself is not very necessary if the aspect ratio of the wing is not too high. (High-aspect-ratio designs tend to suffer from severe "adverse yaw".)



                        But, the birds seem to be able to pull it off, so you never know. The distribution of the "twist" or washout in the wing seems to be a key factor for them.



                        The literal answer to the question in the title is definitely "no". Many successful gliders have been flown without vertical fins. and they can do much more than just fly in a straight line. But they don't typically look like a "normal" glider with the fin chopped off.






                        share|improve this answer











                        $endgroup$








                        • 3




                          $begingroup$
                          The birds have two things model (or real) airplanes lack: Extremely flexible wings which can generate large yawing moments (adverse and proverse, as required), and semi-automatic stability augmentation by the bird's brain. That explains why they don't need a vertical.
                          $endgroup$
                          – Peter Kämpf
                          5 hours ago










                        • $begingroup$
                          @PeterKämpf Also I have observed bird tailfeathers be articulated in many ways, including angling them as a group to seemingly create (and presumably cancel) yaw as well as bank.
                          $endgroup$
                          – Todd Wilcox
                          4 hours ago










                        • $begingroup$
                          Absolutely to the last, they definitely twist their tails to vector the lift to create a rudderlike effect. If you watch carefully it is not obvious that the resulting "inputs" are the same ones a sailplane pilot would make with the rudder while entering a turn or exiting a turn, etc.
                          $endgroup$
                          – quiet flyer
                          3 hours ago










                        • $begingroup$
                          The V-tail Bonanza had no fin.
                          $endgroup$
                          – copper.hat
                          3 hours ago













                        5












                        5








                        5





                        $begingroup$

                        It's unlikely that your project will succeed without a vertical fin. Are you aware that there are countless radio-controlled model airplanes and gliders that feature a fixed vertical fin but no rudder? The fin is much more than just a thing to attach the rudder to. The rudder itself is not very necessary if the aspect ratio of the wing is not too high. (High-aspect-ratio designs tend to suffer from severe "adverse yaw".)



                        But, the birds seem to be able to pull it off, so you never know. The distribution of the "twist" or washout in the wing seems to be a key factor for them.



                        The literal answer to the question in the title is definitely "no". Many successful gliders have been flown without vertical fins. and they can do much more than just fly in a straight line. But they don't typically look like a "normal" glider with the fin chopped off.






                        share|improve this answer











                        $endgroup$



                        It's unlikely that your project will succeed without a vertical fin. Are you aware that there are countless radio-controlled model airplanes and gliders that feature a fixed vertical fin but no rudder? The fin is much more than just a thing to attach the rudder to. The rudder itself is not very necessary if the aspect ratio of the wing is not too high. (High-aspect-ratio designs tend to suffer from severe "adverse yaw".)



                        But, the birds seem to be able to pull it off, so you never know. The distribution of the "twist" or washout in the wing seems to be a key factor for them.



                        The literal answer to the question in the title is definitely "no". Many successful gliders have been flown without vertical fins. and they can do much more than just fly in a straight line. But they don't typically look like a "normal" glider with the fin chopped off.







                        share|improve this answer














                        share|improve this answer



                        share|improve this answer








                        edited 8 hours ago

























                        answered 9 hours ago









                        quiet flyerquiet flyer

                        1,498326




                        1,498326







                        • 3




                          $begingroup$
                          The birds have two things model (or real) airplanes lack: Extremely flexible wings which can generate large yawing moments (adverse and proverse, as required), and semi-automatic stability augmentation by the bird's brain. That explains why they don't need a vertical.
                          $endgroup$
                          – Peter Kämpf
                          5 hours ago










                        • $begingroup$
                          @PeterKämpf Also I have observed bird tailfeathers be articulated in many ways, including angling them as a group to seemingly create (and presumably cancel) yaw as well as bank.
                          $endgroup$
                          – Todd Wilcox
                          4 hours ago










                        • $begingroup$
                          Absolutely to the last, they definitely twist their tails to vector the lift to create a rudderlike effect. If you watch carefully it is not obvious that the resulting "inputs" are the same ones a sailplane pilot would make with the rudder while entering a turn or exiting a turn, etc.
                          $endgroup$
                          – quiet flyer
                          3 hours ago










                        • $begingroup$
                          The V-tail Bonanza had no fin.
                          $endgroup$
                          – copper.hat
                          3 hours ago












                        • 3




                          $begingroup$
                          The birds have two things model (or real) airplanes lack: Extremely flexible wings which can generate large yawing moments (adverse and proverse, as required), and semi-automatic stability augmentation by the bird's brain. That explains why they don't need a vertical.
                          $endgroup$
                          – Peter Kämpf
                          5 hours ago










                        • $begingroup$
                          @PeterKämpf Also I have observed bird tailfeathers be articulated in many ways, including angling them as a group to seemingly create (and presumably cancel) yaw as well as bank.
                          $endgroup$
                          – Todd Wilcox
                          4 hours ago










                        • $begingroup$
                          Absolutely to the last, they definitely twist their tails to vector the lift to create a rudderlike effect. If you watch carefully it is not obvious that the resulting "inputs" are the same ones a sailplane pilot would make with the rudder while entering a turn or exiting a turn, etc.
                          $endgroup$
                          – quiet flyer
                          3 hours ago










                        • $begingroup$
                          The V-tail Bonanza had no fin.
                          $endgroup$
                          – copper.hat
                          3 hours ago







                        3




                        3




                        $begingroup$
                        The birds have two things model (or real) airplanes lack: Extremely flexible wings which can generate large yawing moments (adverse and proverse, as required), and semi-automatic stability augmentation by the bird's brain. That explains why they don't need a vertical.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Peter Kämpf
                        5 hours ago




                        $begingroup$
                        The birds have two things model (or real) airplanes lack: Extremely flexible wings which can generate large yawing moments (adverse and proverse, as required), and semi-automatic stability augmentation by the bird's brain. That explains why they don't need a vertical.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Peter Kämpf
                        5 hours ago












                        $begingroup$
                        @PeterKämpf Also I have observed bird tailfeathers be articulated in many ways, including angling them as a group to seemingly create (and presumably cancel) yaw as well as bank.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Todd Wilcox
                        4 hours ago




                        $begingroup$
                        @PeterKämpf Also I have observed bird tailfeathers be articulated in many ways, including angling them as a group to seemingly create (and presumably cancel) yaw as well as bank.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Todd Wilcox
                        4 hours ago












                        $begingroup$
                        Absolutely to the last, they definitely twist their tails to vector the lift to create a rudderlike effect. If you watch carefully it is not obvious that the resulting "inputs" are the same ones a sailplane pilot would make with the rudder while entering a turn or exiting a turn, etc.
                        $endgroup$
                        – quiet flyer
                        3 hours ago




                        $begingroup$
                        Absolutely to the last, they definitely twist their tails to vector the lift to create a rudderlike effect. If you watch carefully it is not obvious that the resulting "inputs" are the same ones a sailplane pilot would make with the rudder while entering a turn or exiting a turn, etc.
                        $endgroup$
                        – quiet flyer
                        3 hours ago












                        $begingroup$
                        The V-tail Bonanza had no fin.
                        $endgroup$
                        – copper.hat
                        3 hours ago




                        $begingroup$
                        The V-tail Bonanza had no fin.
                        $endgroup$
                        – copper.hat
                        3 hours ago











                        1












                        $begingroup$

                        In reference to radio control models, there have been many that don't have a vertical fin of any kind. The Klingberg Wing (from the 1980s/1990s) is a fine example; it's a pure wing R/C sailplane. There have also been human-carrying sailplanes built along similar lines (generally, a Horten derived layout) that flew well without any sort of vertical surface.



                        If the glider is built for free flight (i.e. uncontrolled), it will generally need some kind of vertical in order to maintain spiral stability, but this is largely because free flight models are generally set up to fly in circles, both so they can catch thermal lift, and so they don't just fly away as soon as they're launched. In your case, however, where you want the glider to fly a maximum straight line distance, a setup similar to a Klingberg wing (swept wing, longitudinally stabilized by tip twist) is likely to be one of the most efficient possible.






                        share|improve this answer











                        $endgroup$












                        • $begingroup$
                          The Klingberg wing is actually identical to a Horten wing, and its yaw stability is achieved by sweep. Sweep generally costs performance, as does sideslip to which both are very prone, especially at high speed.
                          $endgroup$
                          – Peter Kämpf
                          5 hours ago















                        1












                        $begingroup$

                        In reference to radio control models, there have been many that don't have a vertical fin of any kind. The Klingberg Wing (from the 1980s/1990s) is a fine example; it's a pure wing R/C sailplane. There have also been human-carrying sailplanes built along similar lines (generally, a Horten derived layout) that flew well without any sort of vertical surface.



                        If the glider is built for free flight (i.e. uncontrolled), it will generally need some kind of vertical in order to maintain spiral stability, but this is largely because free flight models are generally set up to fly in circles, both so they can catch thermal lift, and so they don't just fly away as soon as they're launched. In your case, however, where you want the glider to fly a maximum straight line distance, a setup similar to a Klingberg wing (swept wing, longitudinally stabilized by tip twist) is likely to be one of the most efficient possible.






                        share|improve this answer











                        $endgroup$












                        • $begingroup$
                          The Klingberg wing is actually identical to a Horten wing, and its yaw stability is achieved by sweep. Sweep generally costs performance, as does sideslip to which both are very prone, especially at high speed.
                          $endgroup$
                          – Peter Kämpf
                          5 hours ago













                        1












                        1








                        1





                        $begingroup$

                        In reference to radio control models, there have been many that don't have a vertical fin of any kind. The Klingberg Wing (from the 1980s/1990s) is a fine example; it's a pure wing R/C sailplane. There have also been human-carrying sailplanes built along similar lines (generally, a Horten derived layout) that flew well without any sort of vertical surface.



                        If the glider is built for free flight (i.e. uncontrolled), it will generally need some kind of vertical in order to maintain spiral stability, but this is largely because free flight models are generally set up to fly in circles, both so they can catch thermal lift, and so they don't just fly away as soon as they're launched. In your case, however, where you want the glider to fly a maximum straight line distance, a setup similar to a Klingberg wing (swept wing, longitudinally stabilized by tip twist) is likely to be one of the most efficient possible.






                        share|improve this answer











                        $endgroup$



                        In reference to radio control models, there have been many that don't have a vertical fin of any kind. The Klingberg Wing (from the 1980s/1990s) is a fine example; it's a pure wing R/C sailplane. There have also been human-carrying sailplanes built along similar lines (generally, a Horten derived layout) that flew well without any sort of vertical surface.



                        If the glider is built for free flight (i.e. uncontrolled), it will generally need some kind of vertical in order to maintain spiral stability, but this is largely because free flight models are generally set up to fly in circles, both so they can catch thermal lift, and so they don't just fly away as soon as they're launched. In your case, however, where you want the glider to fly a maximum straight line distance, a setup similar to a Klingberg wing (swept wing, longitudinally stabilized by tip twist) is likely to be one of the most efficient possible.







                        share|improve this answer














                        share|improve this answer



                        share|improve this answer








                        edited 4 hours ago

























                        answered 6 hours ago









                        Zeiss IkonZeiss Ikon

                        3,902620




                        3,902620











                        • $begingroup$
                          The Klingberg wing is actually identical to a Horten wing, and its yaw stability is achieved by sweep. Sweep generally costs performance, as does sideslip to which both are very prone, especially at high speed.
                          $endgroup$
                          – Peter Kämpf
                          5 hours ago
















                        • $begingroup$
                          The Klingberg wing is actually identical to a Horten wing, and its yaw stability is achieved by sweep. Sweep generally costs performance, as does sideslip to which both are very prone, especially at high speed.
                          $endgroup$
                          – Peter Kämpf
                          5 hours ago















                        $begingroup$
                        The Klingberg wing is actually identical to a Horten wing, and its yaw stability is achieved by sweep. Sweep generally costs performance, as does sideslip to which both are very prone, especially at high speed.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Peter Kämpf
                        5 hours ago




                        $begingroup$
                        The Klingberg wing is actually identical to a Horten wing, and its yaw stability is achieved by sweep. Sweep generally costs performance, as does sideslip to which both are very prone, especially at high speed.
                        $endgroup$
                        – Peter Kämpf
                        5 hours ago











                        0












                        $begingroup$

                        It may not be whether you need one or not, it will probably be getting the right size.



                        Theoretically, one can design without one like a delta wing dihedralled paper airplane.
                        The sides of the fuselage aft of CG act as a vertical stabilizer (make them flat).



                        However, in practice, for free flight (uncontrolled), it is almost impossible to get the wing drag to perfectly match for long efficient high aspect ratio wings, so on go the fin(s), but where?



                        Many gliders have wings longer than the fuselage. A fin can go at each wing tip, or conventionally on top of the fuselage. The wing tip fins will have a longer torque arm,
                        there for can be smaller. But the conventional tail placement has a drag saving trick up its
                        sleeve, putting the vertical stabilizer on top. This uses the drag of the T tail for down force rather than deflecting the elevator. And, of course, you can combine the Hstab and V stab
                        and make a "Vee" tail.



                        So design for a vertical fin, and test in in various sizes. If it works without one great! If not
                        put it (them) on there. That is exactly what the Air Force did when they converted the propeller driven B35 flying wing to that jet powered B49.






                        share|improve this answer









                        $endgroup$

















                          0












                          $begingroup$

                          It may not be whether you need one or not, it will probably be getting the right size.



                          Theoretically, one can design without one like a delta wing dihedralled paper airplane.
                          The sides of the fuselage aft of CG act as a vertical stabilizer (make them flat).



                          However, in practice, for free flight (uncontrolled), it is almost impossible to get the wing drag to perfectly match for long efficient high aspect ratio wings, so on go the fin(s), but where?



                          Many gliders have wings longer than the fuselage. A fin can go at each wing tip, or conventionally on top of the fuselage. The wing tip fins will have a longer torque arm,
                          there for can be smaller. But the conventional tail placement has a drag saving trick up its
                          sleeve, putting the vertical stabilizer on top. This uses the drag of the T tail for down force rather than deflecting the elevator. And, of course, you can combine the Hstab and V stab
                          and make a "Vee" tail.



                          So design for a vertical fin, and test in in various sizes. If it works without one great! If not
                          put it (them) on there. That is exactly what the Air Force did when they converted the propeller driven B35 flying wing to that jet powered B49.






                          share|improve this answer









                          $endgroup$















                            0












                            0








                            0





                            $begingroup$

                            It may not be whether you need one or not, it will probably be getting the right size.



                            Theoretically, one can design without one like a delta wing dihedralled paper airplane.
                            The sides of the fuselage aft of CG act as a vertical stabilizer (make them flat).



                            However, in practice, for free flight (uncontrolled), it is almost impossible to get the wing drag to perfectly match for long efficient high aspect ratio wings, so on go the fin(s), but where?



                            Many gliders have wings longer than the fuselage. A fin can go at each wing tip, or conventionally on top of the fuselage. The wing tip fins will have a longer torque arm,
                            there for can be smaller. But the conventional tail placement has a drag saving trick up its
                            sleeve, putting the vertical stabilizer on top. This uses the drag of the T tail for down force rather than deflecting the elevator. And, of course, you can combine the Hstab and V stab
                            and make a "Vee" tail.



                            So design for a vertical fin, and test in in various sizes. If it works without one great! If not
                            put it (them) on there. That is exactly what the Air Force did when they converted the propeller driven B35 flying wing to that jet powered B49.






                            share|improve this answer









                            $endgroup$



                            It may not be whether you need one or not, it will probably be getting the right size.



                            Theoretically, one can design without one like a delta wing dihedralled paper airplane.
                            The sides of the fuselage aft of CG act as a vertical stabilizer (make them flat).



                            However, in practice, for free flight (uncontrolled), it is almost impossible to get the wing drag to perfectly match for long efficient high aspect ratio wings, so on go the fin(s), but where?



                            Many gliders have wings longer than the fuselage. A fin can go at each wing tip, or conventionally on top of the fuselage. The wing tip fins will have a longer torque arm,
                            there for can be smaller. But the conventional tail placement has a drag saving trick up its
                            sleeve, putting the vertical stabilizer on top. This uses the drag of the T tail for down force rather than deflecting the elevator. And, of course, you can combine the Hstab and V stab
                            and make a "Vee" tail.



                            So design for a vertical fin, and test in in various sizes. If it works without one great! If not
                            put it (them) on there. That is exactly what the Air Force did when they converted the propeller driven B35 flying wing to that jet powered B49.







                            share|improve this answer












                            share|improve this answer



                            share|improve this answer










                            answered 5 hours ago









                            Robert DiGiovanniRobert DiGiovanni

                            3,2001316




                            3,2001316




















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