Non-containing subsets of two sizesIs it always possible to choose two subsets with the same sum?How to keep subsets disjoint?Popular subsets in an intersecting family with a minimality conditionFamily of subsets such that there are at most two sets containing two given elementsChoosing subsets to cover larger setsCommon sizes of intersectionsSets of points containing permutations - a Ramsey-type questionWhen do such regular set systems exist?Erdős-Ko-Rado with intersections of size at least twoMotivation/intution behind using linear algebra in these combinatorics problems

Non-containing subsets of two sizes


Is it always possible to choose two subsets with the same sum?How to keep subsets disjoint?Popular subsets in an intersecting family with a minimality conditionFamily of subsets such that there are at most two sets containing two given elementsChoosing subsets to cover larger setsCommon sizes of intersectionsSets of points containing permutations - a Ramsey-type questionWhen do such regular set systems exist?Erdős-Ko-Rado with intersections of size at least twoMotivation/intution behind using linear algebra in these combinatorics problems













5












$begingroup$


Let $T=1,2,dots,2n+1$. What is the largest $k$ such that we can choose $k$ subsets of size $n$ and $k$ subsets of size $n+1$ of $T$ so that no chosen subset contains another?



$k=binom2nn-1$ is possible: Choose all sets of size $n$ containing $1$, and all sets of size $n+1$ not containing $1$. Does it follow from Sperner's theorem that this is the best possible?










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New contributor



doe is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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$endgroup$











  • $begingroup$
    It should follow. I am not seeing what the challenge is here. Can you explain your difficulty? Gerhard "One Plus One Equals Two?" Paseman, 2019.05.22.
    $endgroup$
    – Gerhard Paseman
    7 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    The challenge is how it follows. Sperner says that there can be at most $binom2n+1n$ pairwise non-containing subsets, but $2binom2nn-1 < binom2n+1n$.
    $endgroup$
    – doe
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Indeed. I had an off by one error, and did not check for it. The next step then is to look at the bipartite graph and induce an edge coloring by the connected vertex coloring. Thanks for explaining. Gerhard "Now I See The Challenge" Paseman, 2019.05.22.
    $endgroup$
    – Gerhard Paseman
    6 hours ago















5












$begingroup$


Let $T=1,2,dots,2n+1$. What is the largest $k$ such that we can choose $k$ subsets of size $n$ and $k$ subsets of size $n+1$ of $T$ so that no chosen subset contains another?



$k=binom2nn-1$ is possible: Choose all sets of size $n$ containing $1$, and all sets of size $n+1$ not containing $1$. Does it follow from Sperner's theorem that this is the best possible?










share|cite|improve this question







New contributor



doe is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






$endgroup$











  • $begingroup$
    It should follow. I am not seeing what the challenge is here. Can you explain your difficulty? Gerhard "One Plus One Equals Two?" Paseman, 2019.05.22.
    $endgroup$
    – Gerhard Paseman
    7 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    The challenge is how it follows. Sperner says that there can be at most $binom2n+1n$ pairwise non-containing subsets, but $2binom2nn-1 < binom2n+1n$.
    $endgroup$
    – doe
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Indeed. I had an off by one error, and did not check for it. The next step then is to look at the bipartite graph and induce an edge coloring by the connected vertex coloring. Thanks for explaining. Gerhard "Now I See The Challenge" Paseman, 2019.05.22.
    $endgroup$
    – Gerhard Paseman
    6 hours ago













5












5








5





$begingroup$


Let $T=1,2,dots,2n+1$. What is the largest $k$ such that we can choose $k$ subsets of size $n$ and $k$ subsets of size $n+1$ of $T$ so that no chosen subset contains another?



$k=binom2nn-1$ is possible: Choose all sets of size $n$ containing $1$, and all sets of size $n+1$ not containing $1$. Does it follow from Sperner's theorem that this is the best possible?










share|cite|improve this question







New contributor



doe is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






$endgroup$




Let $T=1,2,dots,2n+1$. What is the largest $k$ such that we can choose $k$ subsets of size $n$ and $k$ subsets of size $n+1$ of $T$ so that no chosen subset contains another?



$k=binom2nn-1$ is possible: Choose all sets of size $n$ containing $1$, and all sets of size $n+1$ not containing $1$. Does it follow from Sperner's theorem that this is the best possible?







co.combinatorics






share|cite|improve this question







New contributor



doe is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.










share|cite|improve this question







New contributor



doe is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.








share|cite|improve this question




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asked 9 hours ago









doedoe

261




261




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  • $begingroup$
    It should follow. I am not seeing what the challenge is here. Can you explain your difficulty? Gerhard "One Plus One Equals Two?" Paseman, 2019.05.22.
    $endgroup$
    – Gerhard Paseman
    7 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    The challenge is how it follows. Sperner says that there can be at most $binom2n+1n$ pairwise non-containing subsets, but $2binom2nn-1 < binom2n+1n$.
    $endgroup$
    – doe
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Indeed. I had an off by one error, and did not check for it. The next step then is to look at the bipartite graph and induce an edge coloring by the connected vertex coloring. Thanks for explaining. Gerhard "Now I See The Challenge" Paseman, 2019.05.22.
    $endgroup$
    – Gerhard Paseman
    6 hours ago
















  • $begingroup$
    It should follow. I am not seeing what the challenge is here. Can you explain your difficulty? Gerhard "One Plus One Equals Two?" Paseman, 2019.05.22.
    $endgroup$
    – Gerhard Paseman
    7 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    The challenge is how it follows. Sperner says that there can be at most $binom2n+1n$ pairwise non-containing subsets, but $2binom2nn-1 < binom2n+1n$.
    $endgroup$
    – doe
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Indeed. I had an off by one error, and did not check for it. The next step then is to look at the bipartite graph and induce an edge coloring by the connected vertex coloring. Thanks for explaining. Gerhard "Now I See The Challenge" Paseman, 2019.05.22.
    $endgroup$
    – Gerhard Paseman
    6 hours ago















$begingroup$
It should follow. I am not seeing what the challenge is here. Can you explain your difficulty? Gerhard "One Plus One Equals Two?" Paseman, 2019.05.22.
$endgroup$
– Gerhard Paseman
7 hours ago





$begingroup$
It should follow. I am not seeing what the challenge is here. Can you explain your difficulty? Gerhard "One Plus One Equals Two?" Paseman, 2019.05.22.
$endgroup$
– Gerhard Paseman
7 hours ago













$begingroup$
The challenge is how it follows. Sperner says that there can be at most $binom2n+1n$ pairwise non-containing subsets, but $2binom2nn-1 < binom2n+1n$.
$endgroup$
– doe
7 hours ago




$begingroup$
The challenge is how it follows. Sperner says that there can be at most $binom2n+1n$ pairwise non-containing subsets, but $2binom2nn-1 < binom2n+1n$.
$endgroup$
– doe
7 hours ago












$begingroup$
Indeed. I had an off by one error, and did not check for it. The next step then is to look at the bipartite graph and induce an edge coloring by the connected vertex coloring. Thanks for explaining. Gerhard "Now I See The Challenge" Paseman, 2019.05.22.
$endgroup$
– Gerhard Paseman
6 hours ago




$begingroup$
Indeed. I had an off by one error, and did not check for it. The next step then is to look at the bipartite graph and induce an edge coloring by the connected vertex coloring. Thanks for explaining. Gerhard "Now I See The Challenge" Paseman, 2019.05.22.
$endgroup$
– Gerhard Paseman
6 hours ago










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















3












$begingroup$

Let $mathcalA$ be any collection of subsets of $1,dots,m$ such that no subset in $mathcalA$ is contained in another. Let $a_i$ be the number of $i$-element subsets in $mathcalA$. A complete characterization of the sequences $(a_0,a_1,dots)$ appears as Theorem 2.2 in https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/da0b/1a3430e4be45119921b8b8a6578b355bb2f6.pdf. In principle it should be possible to use this result to answer your question, but I did not work out the details.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$




















    3












    $begingroup$

    Like Richard Stanley, I also did not work out the details. I also can't say if you can prove it from Sperner's theorem. Here is why I think there is no larger $k$.



    Split the bipartite graph into two based on whether they contain the element 1 or not. You will see the collection of n+1 sets fanout into the n-sets when they don't have the element 1, and the fanout goes the other way for the sets that do have 1. Your current solution shows the sets at the narrow end of each fanout. Suppose you want to improve upon it.



    This means you will have to take (say) some sets from the n+1 camp, and replace them with even more sets in the other camp (and likewise for the n sets). But however you arrange the n+1 sets in the other camp, if they are all contained in a subset of size less than 2n+1, they will fan out to cover more subsets of size n than they replace, so whatever you choose has to cover the whole set of size 2n+1.



    So now you have to pick j many subsets from 2n+1 elements of size n+1 that cover exactly j subsets of size n: this means each subset of size n has to be covered by n+1 subsets, which is all possible covers of that n set. This means any for any n set covered by one of your j cboices, you also need to cover another n set formed from this n set J by swapping any one element in J for another not in J. But now this closure condition means your j elements have to cover all n sets. That's too many. So it can't be done.



    Gerhard "Look Ma, I Can Fly!" Paseman, 2019.05.22.






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$




















      2












      $begingroup$

      Here's another approach: Given families $mathcalA$ and $mathcalB$ of $n$-sets and $(n+1)$-sets (respectively) that obey the condition, replace $mathcalB$ with the family $mathcalB'$ of complements of sets in $mathcalB$.



      Now the condition that no set in $mathcalA$ is contained in one in $mathcalB$ becomes that every set in $mathcalA$ intersects non-trivially with every set in $mathcalB'$. Such a system is called cross-intersecting.



      Now you can apply combinatorial shifting to $mathcalA$ and $mathcalB'$, and show that it preserves the intersection property. This reduces showing the proof of your inequality to shifted families, where it is likely to be much easier. (I haven't worked out all the details here.)






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$












      • $begingroup$
        (Something equivalent to shifting also looks to be involved in @GerhardPaseman's answer.)
        $endgroup$
        – Russ Woodroofe
        4 hours ago











      Your Answer








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      3 Answers
      3






      active

      oldest

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      3 Answers
      3






      active

      oldest

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      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

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      3












      $begingroup$

      Let $mathcalA$ be any collection of subsets of $1,dots,m$ such that no subset in $mathcalA$ is contained in another. Let $a_i$ be the number of $i$-element subsets in $mathcalA$. A complete characterization of the sequences $(a_0,a_1,dots)$ appears as Theorem 2.2 in https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/da0b/1a3430e4be45119921b8b8a6578b355bb2f6.pdf. In principle it should be possible to use this result to answer your question, but I did not work out the details.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$

















        3












        $begingroup$

        Let $mathcalA$ be any collection of subsets of $1,dots,m$ such that no subset in $mathcalA$ is contained in another. Let $a_i$ be the number of $i$-element subsets in $mathcalA$. A complete characterization of the sequences $(a_0,a_1,dots)$ appears as Theorem 2.2 in https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/da0b/1a3430e4be45119921b8b8a6578b355bb2f6.pdf. In principle it should be possible to use this result to answer your question, but I did not work out the details.






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$















          3












          3








          3





          $begingroup$

          Let $mathcalA$ be any collection of subsets of $1,dots,m$ such that no subset in $mathcalA$ is contained in another. Let $a_i$ be the number of $i$-element subsets in $mathcalA$. A complete characterization of the sequences $(a_0,a_1,dots)$ appears as Theorem 2.2 in https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/da0b/1a3430e4be45119921b8b8a6578b355bb2f6.pdf. In principle it should be possible to use this result to answer your question, but I did not work out the details.






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$



          Let $mathcalA$ be any collection of subsets of $1,dots,m$ such that no subset in $mathcalA$ is contained in another. Let $a_i$ be the number of $i$-element subsets in $mathcalA$. A complete characterization of the sequences $(a_0,a_1,dots)$ appears as Theorem 2.2 in https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/da0b/1a3430e4be45119921b8b8a6578b355bb2f6.pdf. In principle it should be possible to use this result to answer your question, but I did not work out the details.







          share|cite|improve this answer












          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer










          answered 6 hours ago









          Richard StanleyRichard Stanley

          29.6k9118191




          29.6k9118191





















              3












              $begingroup$

              Like Richard Stanley, I also did not work out the details. I also can't say if you can prove it from Sperner's theorem. Here is why I think there is no larger $k$.



              Split the bipartite graph into two based on whether they contain the element 1 or not. You will see the collection of n+1 sets fanout into the n-sets when they don't have the element 1, and the fanout goes the other way for the sets that do have 1. Your current solution shows the sets at the narrow end of each fanout. Suppose you want to improve upon it.



              This means you will have to take (say) some sets from the n+1 camp, and replace them with even more sets in the other camp (and likewise for the n sets). But however you arrange the n+1 sets in the other camp, if they are all contained in a subset of size less than 2n+1, they will fan out to cover more subsets of size n than they replace, so whatever you choose has to cover the whole set of size 2n+1.



              So now you have to pick j many subsets from 2n+1 elements of size n+1 that cover exactly j subsets of size n: this means each subset of size n has to be covered by n+1 subsets, which is all possible covers of that n set. This means any for any n set covered by one of your j cboices, you also need to cover another n set formed from this n set J by swapping any one element in J for another not in J. But now this closure condition means your j elements have to cover all n sets. That's too many. So it can't be done.



              Gerhard "Look Ma, I Can Fly!" Paseman, 2019.05.22.






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$

















                3












                $begingroup$

                Like Richard Stanley, I also did not work out the details. I also can't say if you can prove it from Sperner's theorem. Here is why I think there is no larger $k$.



                Split the bipartite graph into two based on whether they contain the element 1 or not. You will see the collection of n+1 sets fanout into the n-sets when they don't have the element 1, and the fanout goes the other way for the sets that do have 1. Your current solution shows the sets at the narrow end of each fanout. Suppose you want to improve upon it.



                This means you will have to take (say) some sets from the n+1 camp, and replace them with even more sets in the other camp (and likewise for the n sets). But however you arrange the n+1 sets in the other camp, if they are all contained in a subset of size less than 2n+1, they will fan out to cover more subsets of size n than they replace, so whatever you choose has to cover the whole set of size 2n+1.



                So now you have to pick j many subsets from 2n+1 elements of size n+1 that cover exactly j subsets of size n: this means each subset of size n has to be covered by n+1 subsets, which is all possible covers of that n set. This means any for any n set covered by one of your j cboices, you also need to cover another n set formed from this n set J by swapping any one element in J for another not in J. But now this closure condition means your j elements have to cover all n sets. That's too many. So it can't be done.



                Gerhard "Look Ma, I Can Fly!" Paseman, 2019.05.22.






                share|cite|improve this answer









                $endgroup$















                  3












                  3








                  3





                  $begingroup$

                  Like Richard Stanley, I also did not work out the details. I also can't say if you can prove it from Sperner's theorem. Here is why I think there is no larger $k$.



                  Split the bipartite graph into two based on whether they contain the element 1 or not. You will see the collection of n+1 sets fanout into the n-sets when they don't have the element 1, and the fanout goes the other way for the sets that do have 1. Your current solution shows the sets at the narrow end of each fanout. Suppose you want to improve upon it.



                  This means you will have to take (say) some sets from the n+1 camp, and replace them with even more sets in the other camp (and likewise for the n sets). But however you arrange the n+1 sets in the other camp, if they are all contained in a subset of size less than 2n+1, they will fan out to cover more subsets of size n than they replace, so whatever you choose has to cover the whole set of size 2n+1.



                  So now you have to pick j many subsets from 2n+1 elements of size n+1 that cover exactly j subsets of size n: this means each subset of size n has to be covered by n+1 subsets, which is all possible covers of that n set. This means any for any n set covered by one of your j cboices, you also need to cover another n set formed from this n set J by swapping any one element in J for another not in J. But now this closure condition means your j elements have to cover all n sets. That's too many. So it can't be done.



                  Gerhard "Look Ma, I Can Fly!" Paseman, 2019.05.22.






                  share|cite|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$



                  Like Richard Stanley, I also did not work out the details. I also can't say if you can prove it from Sperner's theorem. Here is why I think there is no larger $k$.



                  Split the bipartite graph into two based on whether they contain the element 1 or not. You will see the collection of n+1 sets fanout into the n-sets when they don't have the element 1, and the fanout goes the other way for the sets that do have 1. Your current solution shows the sets at the narrow end of each fanout. Suppose you want to improve upon it.



                  This means you will have to take (say) some sets from the n+1 camp, and replace them with even more sets in the other camp (and likewise for the n sets). But however you arrange the n+1 sets in the other camp, if they are all contained in a subset of size less than 2n+1, they will fan out to cover more subsets of size n than they replace, so whatever you choose has to cover the whole set of size 2n+1.



                  So now you have to pick j many subsets from 2n+1 elements of size n+1 that cover exactly j subsets of size n: this means each subset of size n has to be covered by n+1 subsets, which is all possible covers of that n set. This means any for any n set covered by one of your j cboices, you also need to cover another n set formed from this n set J by swapping any one element in J for another not in J. But now this closure condition means your j elements have to cover all n sets. That's too many. So it can't be done.



                  Gerhard "Look Ma, I Can Fly!" Paseman, 2019.05.22.







                  share|cite|improve this answer












                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer










                  answered 6 hours ago









                  Gerhard PasemanGerhard Paseman

                  9,23122247




                  9,23122247





















                      2












                      $begingroup$

                      Here's another approach: Given families $mathcalA$ and $mathcalB$ of $n$-sets and $(n+1)$-sets (respectively) that obey the condition, replace $mathcalB$ with the family $mathcalB'$ of complements of sets in $mathcalB$.



                      Now the condition that no set in $mathcalA$ is contained in one in $mathcalB$ becomes that every set in $mathcalA$ intersects non-trivially with every set in $mathcalB'$. Such a system is called cross-intersecting.



                      Now you can apply combinatorial shifting to $mathcalA$ and $mathcalB'$, and show that it preserves the intersection property. This reduces showing the proof of your inequality to shifted families, where it is likely to be much easier. (I haven't worked out all the details here.)






                      share|cite|improve this answer









                      $endgroup$












                      • $begingroup$
                        (Something equivalent to shifting also looks to be involved in @GerhardPaseman's answer.)
                        $endgroup$
                        – Russ Woodroofe
                        4 hours ago















                      2












                      $begingroup$

                      Here's another approach: Given families $mathcalA$ and $mathcalB$ of $n$-sets and $(n+1)$-sets (respectively) that obey the condition, replace $mathcalB$ with the family $mathcalB'$ of complements of sets in $mathcalB$.



                      Now the condition that no set in $mathcalA$ is contained in one in $mathcalB$ becomes that every set in $mathcalA$ intersects non-trivially with every set in $mathcalB'$. Such a system is called cross-intersecting.



                      Now you can apply combinatorial shifting to $mathcalA$ and $mathcalB'$, and show that it preserves the intersection property. This reduces showing the proof of your inequality to shifted families, where it is likely to be much easier. (I haven't worked out all the details here.)






                      share|cite|improve this answer









                      $endgroup$












                      • $begingroup$
                        (Something equivalent to shifting also looks to be involved in @GerhardPaseman's answer.)
                        $endgroup$
                        – Russ Woodroofe
                        4 hours ago













                      2












                      2








                      2





                      $begingroup$

                      Here's another approach: Given families $mathcalA$ and $mathcalB$ of $n$-sets and $(n+1)$-sets (respectively) that obey the condition, replace $mathcalB$ with the family $mathcalB'$ of complements of sets in $mathcalB$.



                      Now the condition that no set in $mathcalA$ is contained in one in $mathcalB$ becomes that every set in $mathcalA$ intersects non-trivially with every set in $mathcalB'$. Such a system is called cross-intersecting.



                      Now you can apply combinatorial shifting to $mathcalA$ and $mathcalB'$, and show that it preserves the intersection property. This reduces showing the proof of your inequality to shifted families, where it is likely to be much easier. (I haven't worked out all the details here.)






                      share|cite|improve this answer









                      $endgroup$



                      Here's another approach: Given families $mathcalA$ and $mathcalB$ of $n$-sets and $(n+1)$-sets (respectively) that obey the condition, replace $mathcalB$ with the family $mathcalB'$ of complements of sets in $mathcalB$.



                      Now the condition that no set in $mathcalA$ is contained in one in $mathcalB$ becomes that every set in $mathcalA$ intersects non-trivially with every set in $mathcalB'$. Such a system is called cross-intersecting.



                      Now you can apply combinatorial shifting to $mathcalA$ and $mathcalB'$, and show that it preserves the intersection property. This reduces showing the proof of your inequality to shifted families, where it is likely to be much easier. (I haven't worked out all the details here.)







                      share|cite|improve this answer












                      share|cite|improve this answer



                      share|cite|improve this answer










                      answered 4 hours ago









                      Russ WoodroofeRuss Woodroofe

                      2,61111618




                      2,61111618











                      • $begingroup$
                        (Something equivalent to shifting also looks to be involved in @GerhardPaseman's answer.)
                        $endgroup$
                        – Russ Woodroofe
                        4 hours ago
















                      • $begingroup$
                        (Something equivalent to shifting also looks to be involved in @GerhardPaseman's answer.)
                        $endgroup$
                        – Russ Woodroofe
                        4 hours ago















                      $begingroup$
                      (Something equivalent to shifting also looks to be involved in @GerhardPaseman's answer.)
                      $endgroup$
                      – Russ Woodroofe
                      4 hours ago




                      $begingroup$
                      (Something equivalent to shifting also looks to be involved in @GerhardPaseman's answer.)
                      $endgroup$
                      – Russ Woodroofe
                      4 hours ago










                      doe is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.









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                      doe is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.












                      doe is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.











                      doe is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.














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