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Why aren't 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bh6, and 1.e4 b6 2.d4 Ba6 considered by theory?

What are White's advantages against the Greco Defense?How do I get a well-rounded understanding of chess openings?Does the first-move advantage for White have real meaning apart from the highest levels of play?Is c5 a key move in an opening where white begins with d4?I need to get rid of Black's light-square BishopMeaning and origin of 'theory' in 'opening theory'On 1.e4, Fischer and opening theoryHow to handle Black's Bc5 in Bird's Leningrad?Theory: Things NOT to do in a concrete openingWhy is the Advance Variation considered strong vs the Caro-Kann but not vs the Scandinavian?

0

As the title above, why aren't 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bh6, and 1.e4 b6 2.d4 Ba6 (or eventually beginning with 1.d4) for Black not even considered by theory? Isn't the eventual early trade-off of White's strong Bc1 and Bf1 for Black's Bishop an asset for Black? What is the best reply for White vs such irregular defences? Should he trade the Bishops or avoid that? (i.e. with f2-f4 and c2-c4)?

opening theory 1.e4 modern-defense owens-defence

share|improve this question

edited 36 secs ago

Glorfindel

13.6k43765

asked 2 hours ago

A. N. OtherA. N. Other

2,092823

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  Opening theory is mostly about the fight for the center, if black lets white get the ideal center d4/e4 then he should have a concrete way to fight against it. ...Ba6 and ...Bh6 don't.
  
  – RemcoGerlich
  38 mins ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  Then what is the Bishop on a6 doing in the Queen's Indian?
  
  – A. N. Other
  22 mins ago
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

0

As the title above, why aren't 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bh6, and 1.e4 b6 2.d4 Ba6 (or eventually beginning with 1.d4) for Black not even considered by theory? Isn't the eventual early trade-off of White's strong Bc1 and Bf1 for Black's Bishop an asset for Black? What is the best reply for White vs such irregular defences? Should he trade the Bishops or avoid that? (i.e. with f2-f4 and c2-c4)?

opening theory 1.e4 modern-defense owens-defence

share|improve this question

edited 36 secs ago

Glorfindel

13.6k43765

asked 2 hours ago

A. N. OtherA. N. Other

2,092823

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  Opening theory is mostly about the fight for the center, if black lets white get the ideal center d4/e4 then he should have a concrete way to fight against it. ...Ba6 and ...Bh6 don't.
  
  – RemcoGerlich
  38 mins ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  Then what is the Bishop on a6 doing in the Queen's Indian?
  
  – A. N. Other
  22 mins ago
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

As the title above, why aren't 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bh6, and 1.e4 b6 2.d4 Ba6 (or eventually beginning with 1.d4) for Black not even considered by theory? Isn't the eventual early trade-off of White's strong Bc1 and Bf1 for Black's Bishop an asset for Black? What is the best reply for White vs such irregular defences? Should he trade the Bishops or avoid that? (i.e. with f2-f4 and c2-c4)?

opening theory 1.e4 modern-defense owens-defence

share|improve this question

edited 36 secs ago

Glorfindel

13.6k43765

asked 2 hours ago

A. N. OtherA. N. Other

2,092823

share|improve this question

edited 36 secs ago

Glorfindel

13.6k43765

asked 2 hours ago

A. N. OtherA. N. Other

2,092823

share|improve this question

edited 36 secs ago

Glorfindel

13.6k43765

asked 2 hours ago

A. N. OtherA. N. Other

2,092823

edited 36 secs ago

Glorfindel

13.6k43765

edited 36 secs ago

Glorfindel

13.6k43765

asked 2 hours ago

A. N. OtherA. N. Other

2,092823

asked 2 hours ago

A. N. OtherA. N. Other

2,092823

3 Answers
3

active

oldest

votes

4

White should trade bishops and use the unprotected knight to gain some extra tempo and gain a massive lead in development, e.g.

[FEN ""]

1. e4 g6 2. d4 Bh6 3. Bxh6 Nxh6 4. Qd2 Ng8 5. Nc3

4... Ng4 is best met by 5. h3 Nf6 (forced) 6. e5 Nd5 7. c4 Nb6 8. Qh6 and Black has problems completing his development, though there is no forced win at the moment.

I haven't analyzed the b6/Ba6 lines but I guess a similar concept holds.

share|improve this answer

answered 1 hour ago

GlorfindelGlorfindel

13.6k43765

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  Surely there is no equivalent to 4.Qd2 in the Ba6 line!?
  
  – A. N. Other
  1 hour ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  There is: 4. Qe2 (4. Qd3 loses a tempo to Nb4). The difference is that Black may defend the knight with the semi-useful 4... Qc8 (that move prepares a later c5).
  
  – Glorfindel
  1 hour ago
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

2

I would argue that both of these lines are incorrect on principle. g6 weakens the dark squares on the kingside. In such positions, typically one wants to keep the dark squared bishop on the board to help defend the dark squares. Playing Bh6 lets white trade the dark squared bishops for nothing.

Moreover, the reason for playing a move like g6 is usually to put the bishop on the long diagonal where it can be very strong. If you just trade it off instead, black has gained nothing by the tempo that was lost when g6 was played.

The same applies to the other line.

share|improve this answer

edited 1 hour ago

answered 1 hour ago

QuditQudit

275111

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  On these grounds Black should never trade his f8 Bishop even after ...e6, or his c8 Bishop in the Queen's Indian.
  
  – A. N. Other
  1 hour ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  @A.N.Other Black can of course trade the bishop in some cases, but he should make sure that he is getting something in return and should definitely be concerned about weakening the dark squares.
  
  – Qudit
  1 hour ago
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

1

Opening moves that don't have remotely reasonable ideas don't have a
place in theory.

Your only assertion seems to be that Black is eliminating "strong Bishops". Why are they strong? They haven't even left home yet.

A) White trades bishops:
Black ends up with a silly looking undefended knight on the rim coupled with weakened squares.

B) White doesn't trade bishops:
White can just keep developing, it doesn't really matter how.

Either way White ends up with a large development lead and the center.

share|improve this answer

answered 54 mins ago

YwapomYwapom

3,162321

• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  On what grounds you define "reasonable"? As far as I know, in chess, if something works, it works. The problem is: "does it work or not?" Why should then Black aim at eliminating White's Queen in the opening sequence 1.e4 d6 2.d4 e5, if it hasn't even left home yet? I am not saying that the ...Ba6 and ...Bh6 lines are good, I was just asking for a concrete refutation.
  
  – A. N. Other
  47 mins ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  We are talking about opening theory. The hypothesis that Black is making gains in trading Whites Bishop doesn't pass as valid as there is no evidence of the claim, and there is direct evidence that the variation violates several opening principals; therefore it is unreasonable. If one side is several tempos up in the early opening it is considered to be a large if not decisive advantage; there is no need to enumerate variations from there. As for the opening you quote: Black is fighting in the center and opening avenues to develop his pieces -- sound opening principals.
  
  – Ywapom
  37 mins ago
  
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  If Black castles on the opposite side of the weakening, for example, that weakening would not be that terrible, I strongly feel. But then it's just a matter of personal evaluation. And look at all those early b6 and Ba6 in the Queen's Indian, for example. If the move was so weak, nobody would play it.
  
  – A. N. Other
  29 mins ago
  
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  It is just clearly weak in the line you propose, but maybe 1.e4 g6 2.d4 d6 3.Nc3 Nd7 4.Be3 Bh6 would be different. Probably the bottom line to why things are in theory or not is one thing: Did a GM play it.
  
  – Ywapom
  21 mins ago
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

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4

White should trade bishops and use the unprotected knight to gain some extra tempo and gain a massive lead in development, e.g.

[FEN ""]

1. e4 g6 2. d4 Bh6 3. Bxh6 Nxh6 4. Qd2 Ng8 5. Nc3

4... Ng4 is best met by 5. h3 Nf6 (forced) 6. e5 Nd5 7. c4 Nb6 8. Qh6 and Black has problems completing his development, though there is no forced win at the moment.

I haven't analyzed the b6/Ba6 lines but I guess a similar concept holds.

share|improve this answer

answered 1 hour ago

GlorfindelGlorfindel

13.6k43765

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  Surely there is no equivalent to 4.Qd2 in the Ba6 line!?
  
  – A. N. Other
  1 hour ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  There is: 4. Qe2 (4. Qd3 loses a tempo to Nb4). The difference is that Black may defend the knight with the semi-useful 4... Qc8 (that move prepares a later c5).
  
  – Glorfindel
  1 hour ago
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

4

White should trade bishops and use the unprotected knight to gain some extra tempo and gain a massive lead in development, e.g.

[FEN ""]

1. e4 g6 2. d4 Bh6 3. Bxh6 Nxh6 4. Qd2 Ng8 5. Nc3

4... Ng4 is best met by 5. h3 Nf6 (forced) 6. e5 Nd5 7. c4 Nb6 8. Qh6 and Black has problems completing his development, though there is no forced win at the moment.

I haven't analyzed the b6/Ba6 lines but I guess a similar concept holds.

share|improve this answer

answered 1 hour ago

GlorfindelGlorfindel

13.6k43765

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  Surely there is no equivalent to 4.Qd2 in the Ba6 line!?
  
  – A. N. Other
  1 hour ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  There is: 4. Qe2 (4. Qd3 loses a tempo to Nb4). The difference is that Black may defend the knight with the semi-useful 4... Qc8 (that move prepares a later c5).
  
  – Glorfindel
  1 hour ago
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

White should trade bishops and use the unprotected knight to gain some extra tempo and gain a massive lead in development, e.g.

[FEN ""]

1. e4 g6 2. d4 Bh6 3. Bxh6 Nxh6 4. Qd2 Ng8 5. Nc3

4... Ng4 is best met by 5. h3 Nf6 (forced) 6. e5 Nd5 7. c4 Nb6 8. Qh6 and Black has problems completing his development, though there is no forced win at the moment.

I haven't analyzed the b6/Ba6 lines but I guess a similar concept holds.

share|improve this answer

answered 1 hour ago

GlorfindelGlorfindel

13.6k43765

[FEN ""]

1. e4 g6 2. d4 Bh6 3. Bxh6 Nxh6 4. Qd2 Ng8 5. Nc3

share|improve this answer

answered 1 hour ago

GlorfindelGlorfindel

13.6k43765

answered 1 hour ago

GlorfindelGlorfindel

13.6k43765

answered 1 hour ago

GlorfindelGlorfindel

13.6k43765

2

I would argue that both of these lines are incorrect on principle. g6 weakens the dark squares on the kingside. In such positions, typically one wants to keep the dark squared bishop on the board to help defend the dark squares. Playing Bh6 lets white trade the dark squared bishops for nothing.

Moreover, the reason for playing a move like g6 is usually to put the bishop on the long diagonal where it can be very strong. If you just trade it off instead, black has gained nothing by the tempo that was lost when g6 was played.

The same applies to the other line.

share|improve this answer

edited 1 hour ago

answered 1 hour ago

QuditQudit

275111

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  On these grounds Black should never trade his f8 Bishop even after ...e6, or his c8 Bishop in the Queen's Indian.
  
  – A. N. Other
  1 hour ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  @A.N.Other Black can of course trade the bishop in some cases, but he should make sure that he is getting something in return and should definitely be concerned about weakening the dark squares.
  
  – Qudit
  1 hour ago
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

2

I would argue that both of these lines are incorrect on principle. g6 weakens the dark squares on the kingside. In such positions, typically one wants to keep the dark squared bishop on the board to help defend the dark squares. Playing Bh6 lets white trade the dark squared bishops for nothing.

Moreover, the reason for playing a move like g6 is usually to put the bishop on the long diagonal where it can be very strong. If you just trade it off instead, black has gained nothing by the tempo that was lost when g6 was played.

The same applies to the other line.

share|improve this answer

edited 1 hour ago

answered 1 hour ago

QuditQudit

275111

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  On these grounds Black should never trade his f8 Bishop even after ...e6, or his c8 Bishop in the Queen's Indian.
  
  – A. N. Other
  1 hour ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  @A.N.Other Black can of course trade the bishop in some cases, but he should make sure that he is getting something in return and should definitely be concerned about weakening the dark squares.
  
  – Qudit
  1 hour ago
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

I would argue that both of these lines are incorrect on principle. g6 weakens the dark squares on the kingside. In such positions, typically one wants to keep the dark squared bishop on the board to help defend the dark squares. Playing Bh6 lets white trade the dark squared bishops for nothing.

Moreover, the reason for playing a move like g6 is usually to put the bishop on the long diagonal where it can be very strong. If you just trade it off instead, black has gained nothing by the tempo that was lost when g6 was played.

The same applies to the other line.

share|improve this answer

edited 1 hour ago

answered 1 hour ago

QuditQudit

275111

share|improve this answer

edited 1 hour ago

answered 1 hour ago

QuditQudit

275111

answered 1 hour ago

QuditQudit

275111

answered 1 hour ago

QuditQudit

275111

1

Opening moves that don't have remotely reasonable ideas don't have a
place in theory.

Your only assertion seems to be that Black is eliminating "strong Bishops". Why are they strong? They haven't even left home yet.

A) White trades bishops:
Black ends up with a silly looking undefended knight on the rim coupled with weakened squares.

B) White doesn't trade bishops:
White can just keep developing, it doesn't really matter how.

Either way White ends up with a large development lead and the center.

share|improve this answer

answered 54 mins ago

YwapomYwapom

3,162321

• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  On what grounds you define "reasonable"? As far as I know, in chess, if something works, it works. The problem is: "does it work or not?" Why should then Black aim at eliminating White's Queen in the opening sequence 1.e4 d6 2.d4 e5, if it hasn't even left home yet? I am not saying that the ...Ba6 and ...Bh6 lines are good, I was just asking for a concrete refutation.
  
  – A. N. Other
  47 mins ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  We are talking about opening theory. The hypothesis that Black is making gains in trading Whites Bishop doesn't pass as valid as there is no evidence of the claim, and there is direct evidence that the variation violates several opening principals; therefore it is unreasonable. If one side is several tempos up in the early opening it is considered to be a large if not decisive advantage; there is no need to enumerate variations from there. As for the opening you quote: Black is fighting in the center and opening avenues to develop his pieces -- sound opening principals.
  
  – Ywapom
  37 mins ago
  
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  If Black castles on the opposite side of the weakening, for example, that weakening would not be that terrible, I strongly feel. But then it's just a matter of personal evaluation. And look at all those early b6 and Ba6 in the Queen's Indian, for example. If the move was so weak, nobody would play it.
  
  – A. N. Other
  29 mins ago
  
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  It is just clearly weak in the line you propose, but maybe 1.e4 g6 2.d4 d6 3.Nc3 Nd7 4.Be3 Bh6 would be different. Probably the bottom line to why things are in theory or not is one thing: Did a GM play it.
  
  – Ywapom
  21 mins ago
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

1

Opening moves that don't have remotely reasonable ideas don't have a
place in theory.

Your only assertion seems to be that Black is eliminating "strong Bishops". Why are they strong? They haven't even left home yet.

A) White trades bishops:
Black ends up with a silly looking undefended knight on the rim coupled with weakened squares.

B) White doesn't trade bishops:
White can just keep developing, it doesn't really matter how.

Either way White ends up with a large development lead and the center.

share|improve this answer

answered 54 mins ago

YwapomYwapom

3,162321

• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  On what grounds you define "reasonable"? As far as I know, in chess, if something works, it works. The problem is: "does it work or not?" Why should then Black aim at eliminating White's Queen in the opening sequence 1.e4 d6 2.d4 e5, if it hasn't even left home yet? I am not saying that the ...Ba6 and ...Bh6 lines are good, I was just asking for a concrete refutation.
  
  – A. N. Other
  47 mins ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  We are talking about opening theory. The hypothesis that Black is making gains in trading Whites Bishop doesn't pass as valid as there is no evidence of the claim, and there is direct evidence that the variation violates several opening principals; therefore it is unreasonable. If one side is several tempos up in the early opening it is considered to be a large if not decisive advantage; there is no need to enumerate variations from there. As for the opening you quote: Black is fighting in the center and opening avenues to develop his pieces -- sound opening principals.
  
  – Ywapom
  37 mins ago
  
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  If Black castles on the opposite side of the weakening, for example, that weakening would not be that terrible, I strongly feel. But then it's just a matter of personal evaluation. And look at all those early b6 and Ba6 in the Queen's Indian, for example. If the move was so weak, nobody would play it.
  
  – A. N. Other
  29 mins ago
  
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  It is just clearly weak in the line you propose, but maybe 1.e4 g6 2.d4 d6 3.Nc3 Nd7 4.Be3 Bh6 would be different. Probably the bottom line to why things are in theory or not is one thing: Did a GM play it.
  
  – Ywapom
  21 mins ago
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

Opening moves that don't have remotely reasonable ideas don't have a
place in theory.

Your only assertion seems to be that Black is eliminating "strong Bishops". Why are they strong? They haven't even left home yet.

A) White trades bishops:
Black ends up with a silly looking undefended knight on the rim coupled with weakened squares.

B) White doesn't trade bishops:
White can just keep developing, it doesn't really matter how.

Either way White ends up with a large development lead and the center.

share|improve this answer

answered 54 mins ago

YwapomYwapom

3,162321

share|improve this answer

answered 54 mins ago

YwapomYwapom

3,162321

answered 54 mins ago

YwapomYwapom

3,162321

answered 54 mins ago

YwapomYwapom

3,162321